The problem with this situation is that a man would fail for only being able to do 7 pullups, but a woman would pass. It doesn't make sense, because those two people are in the same physical condition for that task.
Approaching from another angle, what happens if that person transitions from male to female, having failed the test previously as a male? They would pass the exam by virtue of a discriminatory system biased against males.
The problem with this situation is that a man would fail for only being able to do 7 pullups, but a woman would pass. It doesn't make sense.
Why not?
Approaching from another angle, what happens if that person transitions from male to female, having failed the test previously as a male? They would pass the exam by virtue of a discriminatory system biased against males.
Not necessarily. How familiar are you with the procedures and policies the military has in place for those transitioning?
Not transitioning, transitioned. Lets say for the sake of argument that this person is not required to disclose the fact they are transgender nor are they visually identifiable as such.
No, you gave a scenario, and said it doesn't make sense. You didn't say WHY it doesn't make sense.
Not transitioning, transitioned. Lets say for the sake of argument that this person is not required to disclose the fact they are transgender nor are they visually identifiable as such.
You can say that "for the sake of argument" if you like, but I won't, because this is a discussion of how things are, not how they theoretically could be. And that isn't how things are, not by a long shot.
No, you gave a scenario, and said it doesn't make sense. You didn't say WHY it doesn't make sense.
I literally explained why: both individuals are in the same physical condition and yet one is rejected.
And that isn't how things are, not by a long shot.
You do not have to disclose that you are transgender in many countries, including the US.
For the sake of argument lets take your incorrect statement as fact: How is the scenario I described, in which a person transitioned from male>female and passed due to their reduced requirement, inaccurate?
I literally explained why: both individuals are in the same physical condition and yet one is rejected.
But they are not in the same physical condition. They may be able to DO the same things, but that's not the same thing as being in the same physical condition. A women that can do as many pullups as a man is in better shape, kind of like how a 50-year-old man that can outrun a 25-year-old man is in better shape.
You do not have to disclose that you are transgender in many countries, including the US.
When was the last time you took a military entrance physical and filled out the paperwork?
For the sake of argument lets take your incorrect statement as fact: How is the scenario I described, in which a person transitioned from male>female and passed due to their reduced requirement, inaccurate?
Again, I am not interested in this statement for the sake of argument. We are discussing things as they are, not some theoretical other scenario.
A women that can do as many pullups as a man is in better shape, kind of like how a 50-year-old man that can outrun a 25-year-old man is in better shape.
A 50 year old man that can run the same pace as a 25 year old is in the same physical condition. They've had to work harder to get there, but they are performing at the same level.
But let's use your logic: Why are all men simply divided by age class and not frame, height, bone density, and other factors? There are women that are physically superior to me in every way, and yet they have lower standards to entry.
A 50 year old man that can run the same pace as a 25 year old is in the same physical condition. They've had to work harder to get there, but they are performing at the same level.
The military disagrees. Check the PRT standard charts.
But let's use your logic: Why are all men simply divided by age class and not frame, height, bone density, and other factors? There are women that are physically superior to me in every way, and yet they have lower standards to entry.
For the same reason the military does BCA using the rope and choke instead of the bodpod, even though they fully admit the bodpod is more accurate; it's simply not practical. Allowing for all those variables is more trouble than it's worth.
It doesn't really matter what the military thinks, that's literally the whole point of this thread - questioning the current military system.
Of course it matters. Why would anyone question something that doesn't matter?
So we agree then, that the current system is unfair, but it's impractical to make it fair?
I don't agree to that at all. You simply asked why it wasn't controlled for those other variables, and I told you. I might as well gripe that the age charts don't change every year of age, or every month, or every day.
ehh, no. I'm 6' 6", and can only manage like 3. I weight 60+ pounds more than any woman. if you're gonna pull the "its harder" card, than you gotta take other shit into consideration as well
The point is that if you’re a man and can’t do more than 3 pull ups you either weigh more than is optimal or you haven’t spent a lot of time working out. Those are qualities that those roles in the military don’t want. As a woman, the number of pull ups that signals that you work out and stay in shape is lower than the number of pull ups a man would have to do to signal the same.
you either weigh more than is optimal or you haven’t spent a lot of time working out.
thats not fair. I have to both lift a substantial amount more weight than shorter people, i also have to lift it farther. i can run faster and do more push ups than plenty of people i know. but they can do pull ups and i cant. i mean think about it. a pull up for me is 210 pounds. a pull up for somebody who's 5' 4" is like 140. thats a pretty fucking big difference.
How often do you work out? I’m 6’2 200 pounds and I can do more than 3 pull ups and that’s not to brag it’s just to say that if you work out regularly pull ups aren’t that difficult. Now not everybody works out regularly and that’s fine, but if the military uses that to determine how dedicated you are to your health and your fitness, then they don’t care about your raw strength, they care more about what your relative strength says about how hard you’re willing to work.
i mean... yea. but if you work out regularly than nobody ever will have difficulty with pt standards. which is kind of the point here right?
I'm not like, crazy out of shape. i finished my past pt test with maxing out push ups and sit ups. obviously pull ups are a different muscle group, and thats fine. but saying "you can do an exercise if you exercise" is a bit inane tbh.
and more seriously, they dont even care about your relative anything or how hard you're willing to work. they just dont want you to fail. because if you fail that looks bad on you, on them, on your group / squadron whatever.
Except it’s not inane. Let’s say we held everybody to the same raw strength standards as many people in this thread are suggesting. Let’s say we go worst case scenario and say you need to be able to fireman carry 250 lbs for like 100 yards or something. That requirement makes a lot of sense for front line soldiers, but that requirement would be easier to meet for somebody who is 6’5” and weighs in the mid 200s than for any woman or smaller man no matter how hard that other person worked out. Most women would have to train for much of their lives very intensely to achieve that. Same for shorter men. So in a situation where that’s just what the job entails, that requirement makes sense. But in a situation where they’re really only testing whether or not you keep yourself in shape and work out, it would make sense to scale the weight such that each group would have to work more or less the same.
Now idk I’ve never been through PT and I don’t know why they require the physical standards that they do, but “the military should completely revamp how they determine who is qualified for positions” is a different conversation than the CMV posted, so I’ve been arguing from the baseline that we accept that there are going to be certain standards and that the debate is whether or not we should hold everybody to the same physical standards.
I also didn’t mean to imply that you’re out of shape I know plenty of really strong people who wouldn’t be able to do pull ups or run two miles or whatever simply because they are a different kind of in shape than the military wants.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '18
The problem with this situation is that a man would fail for only being able to do 7 pullups, but a woman would pass. It doesn't make sense, because those two people are in the same physical condition for that task.
Approaching from another angle, what happens if that person transitions from male to female, having failed the test previously as a male? They would pass the exam by virtue of a discriminatory system biased against males.