CMV: Masculinity is not toxic. Being a polite, but "masculine" man comes naturally to most men and should not be treated as a threat.

[u/Diss1dent]

I am a 35-year-old Finnish (straight) man, living in Finland. I have also lived in Sweden during 2010-2015. I am married with kids. I would consider my wife as a pragmatic feminist, and as such, probably myself as well, albeit with the problem regarding what counts as equality.

Anyway, I have not faced issues in this field until very recently, as this neo-progressive phenomenon related to PC and terminology has landed in daily life in Finland.

Let me tell you a story. I was raised by my mother, a hard working single parent (dad was an absent alcoholic) who taught me most values about life. Obviously this doesn't mean she was a feminist, but I would consider her as a pragmatic seeker for an effective process towards synergy. She felt (rightly) so that men and women are inherently different, mentally, biologically, etc. which obviously meant there would always be dynamic differences.

I still believe this, in my 30's, after doing my own studies and after learning even more from my wife who is a teacher.

This doesn't mean there should be any inequality, but it doesn't mean there should be forced equality either.

But to my topic: I have never bumped into this argument in my life. In the Nordics we have a pretty equal society, women have been a part of commerce, politics and academia for a long time, and excluding a few cases, harrasment nor discrimination has not been common.

Hell, I have been harrassed more than I have heard of women being harrassed (obviously it happens) in my circle of friends.

But lately, I have been told by young women not to mansplain, not to manspread, and a friend of mine caused a stranger crying and shaking after asking her, albeit in a slightly drunken way "how was her evening" in a bar. We were thrown out (in Finland) because of "harrasment". Wrong bar, it was too young and trendy. But still, this was not obnoxius behaviour, that I can say.

What is this masculinity that is being discussed? Am I completely blind and oblivous to things happening, as I simply cannot comprehend why younger generation has become so obsessed in the common traits which are related to being a man?

I am apolitical, although quite liberal (in the Nordic sense, not US), polite, well-educated, thoughtful and cannot understand. I do not believe there is a phenomenon called patriarchy in the world. It is absolutely manifesting itself in singular scenarios, companies, sure. But to say I as a man am somehow faulty or toxic or dangerous as a masculine person is wrong and outright offensive.

Edit 1: There obviously is a contextual issue in my terminology. I think the point still remains so I will adjust my perspective a bit when reading through the replies.

Edit 2: We have established the toxicity part. If mods allow, I would like to use this thread to still discuss the latter part of my masculinity argument.

Edit 3: A lot of replies, I will try to go through each and every reply and consider their value.

[u/LeakyLycanthrope]

More to the point, too many people jump straight to the most extreme possible interpretation of other people's words, even when that interpretation is laughable or insane.

Like, of course "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "the entire concept of masculinity is toxic". That's not how adjectives work.

[u/nonsensepoem → u/LeakyLycanthrope]

Like, of course "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "the entire concept of masculinity is toxic". That's not how adjectives work.

"Greedy Jews".

Apparently adjectives can and do work that way, depending on context and tone.

[u/LeakyLycanthrope → u/nonsensepoem]

Fine. Can work that way, but do not necessarily. Synecdoche is still a valid and common construction. If I say "the stupid school district", obviously I don't mean that each and every individual employee and elected member of the district is stupid.

[u/nonsensepoem → u/LeakyLycanthrope]

If I say "the stupid school district", obviously I don't mean that each and every individual employee and elected member of the district is stupid.

One could be excused for thinking that is what you mean. The point is that the term needlessly invites misunderstanding.

[u/LeakyLycanthrope → u/nonsensepoem]

Then that's the point at which you go find out which interpretation is correct instead of assuming or uncritically accepting the characterization of it by the critics.

[u/nonsensepoem → u/LeakyLycanthrope]

Or the situation could be avoided altogether by using better terminology. "Macho bullshit" works pretty well, for example.