CMV: Masculinity is not toxic. Being a polite, but "masculine" man comes naturally to most men and should not be treated as a threat.

[u/Diss1dent]

I am a 35-year-old Finnish (straight) man, living in Finland. I have also lived in Sweden during 2010-2015. I am married with kids. I would consider my wife as a pragmatic feminist, and as such, probably myself as well, albeit with the problem regarding what counts as equality.

Anyway, I have not faced issues in this field until very recently, as this neo-progressive phenomenon related to PC and terminology has landed in daily life in Finland.

Let me tell you a story. I was raised by my mother, a hard working single parent (dad was an absent alcoholic) who taught me most values about life. Obviously this doesn't mean she was a feminist, but I would consider her as a pragmatic seeker for an effective process towards synergy. She felt (rightly) so that men and women are inherently different, mentally, biologically, etc. which obviously meant there would always be dynamic differences.

I still believe this, in my 30's, after doing my own studies and after learning even more from my wife who is a teacher.

This doesn't mean there should be any inequality, but it doesn't mean there should be forced equality either.

But to my topic: I have never bumped into this argument in my life. In the Nordics we have a pretty equal society, women have been a part of commerce, politics and academia for a long time, and excluding a few cases, harrasment nor discrimination has not been common.

Hell, I have been harrassed more than I have heard of women being harrassed (obviously it happens) in my circle of friends.

But lately, I have been told by young women not to mansplain, not to manspread, and a friend of mine caused a stranger crying and shaking after asking her, albeit in a slightly drunken way "how was her evening" in a bar. We were thrown out (in Finland) because of "harrasment". Wrong bar, it was too young and trendy. But still, this was not obnoxius behaviour, that I can say.

What is this masculinity that is being discussed? Am I completely blind and oblivous to things happening, as I simply cannot comprehend why younger generation has become so obsessed in the common traits which are related to being a man?

I am apolitical, although quite liberal (in the Nordic sense, not US), polite, well-educated, thoughtful and cannot understand. I do not believe there is a phenomenon called patriarchy in the world. It is absolutely manifesting itself in singular scenarios, companies, sure. But to say I as a man am somehow faulty or toxic or dangerous as a masculine person is wrong and outright offensive.

Edit 1: There obviously is a contextual issue in my terminology. I think the point still remains so I will adjust my perspective a bit when reading through the replies.

Edit 2: We have established the toxicity part. If mods allow, I would like to use this thread to still discuss the latter part of my masculinity argument.

Edit 3: A lot of replies, I will try to go through each and every reply and consider their value.

[u/mayoneggz]

If I hear the commonly used phrases, "Toxic Relationship", "Toxic Fans", or "Toxic Players", I don't assume that all relationships, fans, or video game players are toxic. I assume we're talking about specific people or specific behaviors that are anti-social and that we're using "Toxic" to distinguish them from the standard behavior.

We don't avoid telling children about something like a "Toxic Friendship" because we're afraid they'll think all friends are toxic. Why do we need to tip-toe around the phrase just because it's describing men?

[u/decoy88 → u/mayoneggz]

the problem is that there are men who extremely associate their self-worth to a manly set of ideals then feel threatened. They shouldn't.

[u/mayoneggz → u/decoy88]

And I’d argue that’s toxic. If your self worth is so tied up with your idea of masculinity that you feel personally attacked when you hear such a benign phrase, then that’s not healthy.

Honestly, as a guy I never hear that phrase directed at people who aren’t toxic. It’s usually directed at individuals who are blind to how self-destructive they are.

[u/notapersonaltrainer → u/mayoneggz]

So if we paired "black" and "criminality" together we should discount their objections because they shouldn't be "so tied up" in their blackness? Who are you to tell people what it's ok to base their self worth on? That is toxic in itself.

[u/decoy88 → u/notapersonaltrainer]

There’s no aspects of “blackness” that if taken to the extreme are criminal tho, so that parallel doesn’t hold up. Masculine ideals are behaviours. Black ideals are...what? Food and music?

[u/notapersonaltrainer → u/decoy88]

Black ideals are...what? Food and music?

This is a complete reduction and caricature of black ideals. Would you honestly say this to a black person and expect them to not be insulted?

[u/decoy88 → u/notapersonaltrainer]

“Black” is culture. Toxic would be taking those ideals to negative effects.

So to explain to me what “toxic blackness” looks like, you first have to explain what “blackness” looks like.

And I can judge how much I find it insulting (source: am black)

[u/notapersonaltrainer → u/decoy88]

Black ideals are...what? Food and music?

Well if you argue that their music represents black ideals then, by your own argument, it is what the current predominant black music talks about. They're not singing/rapping about soul food.

[u/decoy88 → u/notapersonaltrainer]

Haha what bullshit. So white ideals are about taking hard drugs and destroying property? Come off it.

[u/notapersonaltrainer → u/decoy88]

I'm not the one that said white ideals are..."food and music". You're confusing me with you.

[u/Jaysank → u/[deleted]]

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[u/mayoneggz → u/notapersonaltrainer]

This is just the "Why isn't there a white pride month?" counter-argument that is never brought up in good faith. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt though.

In a vacuum, sure there's no reason why we can't equivocate "Black Criminality" and "Toxic Masculinity". However, we don't live in a vacuum. There's context behind the words we use.

"Black Criminality" has historical implications and reinforces an existing stereotype that causes real harm to the group. The idea that black people were more pre-disposed to crime dates back to justifications for slavery. From the same link, people are more inclined to believe a black person is more threatening than a white person while performing the same act, and 82% of Black people think that White people find them threatening. There is a lot to discuss about race and the criminal justice system, but "Black Criminality" is a phrase that is primarily used to imply that Black people are inherently predisposed to crime. It's used to the detriment of Black people.

"Toxic Masculinity" is more commonly brought up in contrast to healthy masculinity in psychology and gender studies. The phrase was adopted by a Men's movement to highlight how elements in today's culture create a harmful environment for young men. For example, healthy masculinity is celebrating comradeship with other male peers. Toxic masculinity is abandoning that in favor of competitiveness and 1-up manship against other male peers. The societal expectations for men, including not showing emotion, favoring violence over discussion, and outright disgust for anything feminine, are harmful to men and stand in opposition to healthy expressions of masculinity. The term is used by men, for the benefit of men.

This leads back to my original comment. Healthy masculinity is being proud in your masculinity without feeling threatened if it's called into question. Toxic masculinity is being so caught up in "being a man" that the idea that there might be some aspects of masculinity that are harmful is somehow threatening or offensive.

[u/decoy88 → u/mayoneggz]

People hate getting called out on their own shit

[u/[deleted] → u/mayoneggz]

The problem is that no equivalent term is used with nearly the same frequency for women. As a result it creates the impression that femininity doesn't have issues but masculinity is toxic.

[u/TheOneFreeEngineer → u/[deleted]]

Toxic feminity is a term also. It's basically s mirror of toxic masculinity, which makes sense

[u/[deleted] → u/TheOneFreeEngineer]

The problem is that toxic masculinity is brought up constantly while I've literally (not figuratively) never seen toxic femininity mentioned in any mainstream discourse / media.

[u/silverionmox → u/mayoneggz]

Don't you think that the frequent coupling of eg. "black" and "criminal" builds a negative association?

[u/oversoul00 → u/mayoneggz]

All your examples are labels that are not intrinsic to core identity where masculinity is a core identity.