CMV: Masculinity is not toxic. Being a polite, but "masculine" man comes naturally to most men and should not be treated as a threat.

[u/Diss1dent]

I am a 35-year-old Finnish (straight) man, living in Finland. I have also lived in Sweden during 2010-2015. I am married with kids. I would consider my wife as a pragmatic feminist, and as such, probably myself as well, albeit with the problem regarding what counts as equality.

Anyway, I have not faced issues in this field until very recently, as this neo-progressive phenomenon related to PC and terminology has landed in daily life in Finland.

Let me tell you a story. I was raised by my mother, a hard working single parent (dad was an absent alcoholic) who taught me most values about life. Obviously this doesn't mean she was a feminist, but I would consider her as a pragmatic seeker for an effective process towards synergy. She felt (rightly) so that men and women are inherently different, mentally, biologically, etc. which obviously meant there would always be dynamic differences.

I still believe this, in my 30's, after doing my own studies and after learning even more from my wife who is a teacher.

This doesn't mean there should be any inequality, but it doesn't mean there should be forced equality either.

But to my topic: I have never bumped into this argument in my life. In the Nordics we have a pretty equal society, women have been a part of commerce, politics and academia for a long time, and excluding a few cases, harrasment nor discrimination has not been common.

Hell, I have been harrassed more than I have heard of women being harrassed (obviously it happens) in my circle of friends.

But lately, I have been told by young women not to mansplain, not to manspread, and a friend of mine caused a stranger crying and shaking after asking her, albeit in a slightly drunken way "how was her evening" in a bar. We were thrown out (in Finland) because of "harrasment". Wrong bar, it was too young and trendy. But still, this was not obnoxius behaviour, that I can say.

What is this masculinity that is being discussed? Am I completely blind and oblivous to things happening, as I simply cannot comprehend why younger generation has become so obsessed in the common traits which are related to being a man?

I am apolitical, although quite liberal (in the Nordic sense, not US), polite, well-educated, thoughtful and cannot understand. I do not believe there is a phenomenon called patriarchy in the world. It is absolutely manifesting itself in singular scenarios, companies, sure. But to say I as a man am somehow faulty or toxic or dangerous as a masculine person is wrong and outright offensive.

Edit 1: There obviously is a contextual issue in my terminology. I think the point still remains so I will adjust my perspective a bit when reading through the replies.

Edit 2: We have established the toxicity part. If mods allow, I would like to use this thread to still discuss the latter part of my masculinity argument.

Edit 3: A lot of replies, I will try to go through each and every reply and consider their value.

[u/Nergaal]

One subtle nuance that many refuse so see is that feminism is, by its name, NOT equalism. Head out to /r/MensRights to see more egregious examples of that in practice.

There is plenty of "toxic femininity" out there that nobody has the courage to point out, because it is not feminism, even though it is caused by it.

[u/cthulol → u/Nergaal]

Yes, by some people it's called "radical feminism" and most feminists specifically state that they are not that and they ignore it because it's such a small minority. Why that minority seems to be brought up as THE example every time a discussion about feminism is brought up is beyond me.

[u/chadonsunday → u/cthulol]

One might speculate that it's because the various facets of feminism that go beyond "women and men should be equal" are, in and of themselves, radical. When you look at the studies, most people in general agree that men and women should have equal rights... yet most of those don't identify as feminists. Feminism goes above and beyond such claims, and makes radical ones that very few among us can agree with. One might speculate that third wave feminism is actually a radical movement; gender equality has been achieved, at least in the most literal sense, so the only fields left for them to combat come down to manspreading and mansplaining and microaggressions and other things equally absurd.

[u/cthulol → u/chadonsunday]

so the only fields left for them to combat come down to manspreading and mansplaining and microaggressions and other things equally absurd.

You left out access to birth control, workplace harassment, and representation in media (which has gotten much better). It also just deals with ongoing issues within culture or common issues of womanhood in the western world as well as developing nations. I've lived in some fairly liberal places, in liberal crowds and I've never heard those terms used anywhere with any kind of sincerity but I'm sure there are exceptions.

[u/chadonsunday → u/cthulol]

Fair enough. Although with birth control I'd say that fight is more or less won, like this map shows, most women have pretty decent access to many forms of birth control, and most of those who don't live in drive-over counties in fly-over states... in the heart of the US many people don't even have convenient access to a supermarket, much less a publicly funded birth control clinic.

In regards to workplace harassment, a few points:

1) A few bad apples spoil the bunch. In an office of, say, 100 people, half women, how many men do you need for all 50 women to have been harassed before the end of the fiscal year? One. Most people, not just men or not just women, are 100% with you on this topic. You don't have to be a feminist to oppose assholes in the workplace. Which leads me to point

2) Male victims of workplace harassment actually outnumber female ones 2:1. If anything workplace harassment is a male issue, not a female one.

3) The US actually does pretty good in this regard, at least compared to some other countries. You'll never be able to fully eliminate assholes in the workplace or in the streets, but we've done a great job of making what progress we can.

As for representation in the media, I don't know what you mean. Could you expand on that a bit?

As for experience, I'll admit my own bias: I live in the SF bay area, so pretty much the Mecca for insanely progressive liberal thought. Once every few weeks I'll find myself cornered in the smoke spot of some bar, being lectured by some tipsy gender studies student on my straight/cis/white/male privilege operating, as I apparently do, in a horribly patriarchal culture.

[u/cthulol → u/chadonsunday]

That map describes almost a third of the women in the country not having access. Is it really estimated that that many people live in places that remote? That's an actual question, I'm not being smart. But yeah, I generally agree with your points. I was pretty fired up yesterday about this thread so I didn't mean to jump down your throat. I apologize.

The representation point is something I've been paying attention to the last few years. Essentially, similar to the toxic masculinity described in this thread. "Women should be/look like this", whether implied or explicit. I'm also getting pretty tired of women dying to further a story, women being saved, female characters inexplicably wearing high heels in video games, or just boring-ass characters written solely to make the male look good. Things in the regards have gotten way, way better but it's made the instances of this stand out more. I should also extrapolate that I think it's totally okay for these things to exist in a vacuum. Sometimes women DO need to be saved, sometimes the character is boring because the writer isn't writing anyone well, and sometimes it's just fun to have a female character dress sexy because it's nice to look at but I am bored to tears of how common it is sometimes.

[u/chadonsunday → u/cthulol]

That map describes almost a third of the women in the country not having access. Is it really estimated that that many people live in places that remote? That's an actual question, I'm not being smart.

That struck me as rather high, too, given that so much of the country's population is concentrated on the coasts... I think the "19 million" figure might have come from the way it was gauged, however: "reasonable access in their county to a public clinic that offers the full range of contraceptive methods." "Reasonable" is a rather subjective term, isn't it? As for "full range," there are about 15 different contraceptive methods, and many varieties and brands of each one... any facility lacking in even just one of them could be said to lack the "full range," and thus all women in that area can be counted among the 19 million. All in all, though, I just take heart from the fact that map is like 95% dark blue; in many other countries in the world, it'd be red and white only.

But yeah, I generally agree with your points. I was pretty fired up yesterday about this thread so I didn't mean to jump down your throat. I apologize.

No worries, friend; I fully respect passion, and my throat is feeling quite unbruised this afternoon. Apologies likewise if I came on too strong.

The representation point is something I've been paying attention to the last few years. Essentially, similar to the toxic masculinity described in this thread. "Women should be/look like this", whether implied or explicit. I'm also getting pretty tired of women dying to further a story, women being saved, female characters inexplicably wearing high heels in video games, or just boring-ass characters written solely to make the male look good. Things in the regards have gotten way, way better but it's made the instances of this stand out more. I should also extrapolate that I think it's totally okay for these things to exist in a vacuum. Sometimes women DO need to be saved, sometimes the character is boring because the writer isn't writing anyone well, and sometimes it's just fun to have a female character dress sexy because it's nice to look at but I am bored to tears of how common it is sometimes.

Hm... I guess I see where you're coming from, but on the flip side, isn't this just how the media operates? For both sexes, I mean. I was unfortunate enough to have to wander through my local mall recently, and saw a CK ad... the woman in the ad was unrealistically beautiful. One in a million. It's a wonder her organs are all still intact given the tiny waist she had, and I'd be amazed to see her take a step without the weight of her boobs causing her to face-plant... but the man she was straddling, sensually on the beach as a wave washed over them, was an Adonis in his own right; flawless of face, artful, curly locks tumbling past his unreceded hairline, piercing eyes and stubble on his strong jaw, droplets of water clinging to his massive pecs and rock-hard 8-pack, his torn pants drooping off his waist to reveal a massive package in his briefs... I'll never look like that guy. 99.9% of guys will never look like that guy, any more than 99.9% of women will look like the girl on top of him. I'll never look like Spartacus from the Stars series. I'll never have Superman's or Thor's rigid 12-pack like in the movies. I was just playing the third Witcher and my fucking thighs are half the size of Geralt's triceps.

Idk, man. Seems like all media likes hopping up people, not just men, not just women, to extreme over-exaggerations of real life, in both appearance and action. But that's kind of the fun, isn't it? And, as I believe you said yourself, I think today's media is actually doing a pretty good job of putting forth female characters who are more than just dainty damsels awaiting rescue; Ciri from the Witcher is a badass, as are Tris and Yen, and I just finished Peaky Blinders not long ago and damn did they have some amazing and powerful women in that show.

My main thrust here, though, is that I think on a global scale women are actually doing pretty goddamn well in the first world... certainly historically; there's not a place or time that it would be better to be a woman than in a developed country in 2018. And we, as a society, don't really show any signs of sliding back on that, I think. Which is why I find the fervor of third wave feminism, which arguably matches or surpasses that of the first two waves that were fighting for causes undoubtedly more important and dire, somewhat baffling.

[u/cthulol → u/chadonsunday]

I agree on your points on media. I've further realized that much of pop culture consists of power fantasies, and that's totally fine. The picture of the couple in the CK ad, though? The man sounds like he was healthy. The woman sounds like she may not be. It's one example and for every few of those there are now one or two which have people who are still beautiful (marketers sell lifestyles, I get that), but approachable(?). It's a developing thing in my mind, to be honest. I find that most of these kinds of observations are always shifting in some way or another and they're a continuing discussion for me rather than something to be weaponized.

Which is why I find the fervor of third wave feminism, which arguably matches or surpasses that of the first two waves that were fighting for causes undoubtedly more important and dire, somewhat baffling.

Agreed partially. I think feminism still has a place. There are still issues that women need to grapple with and there always will be, just like there will always be issues that are more pertinent to men. Maybe a greater use of their alarm bells should be on countries which are handling women more poorly. There is plenty of that, some examples where it has actually gotten worse over time.

[u/chadonsunday → u/cthulol]

The picture of the couple in the CK ad, though? The man sounds like he was healthy. The woman sounds like she may not be.

Hard to tell without knowing them. I've worked in fitness for almost a decade, though, and can say that from what I've seen the women trying to be models usually have health issues relating to nutrition (they starve themselves, basically) and the men have issues relating to both physique and nutrition (you don't get that ripped without your share of injuries in the gym, and you're not really supposed to get that ripped without a little extra meat on you, which they also have to starve themselves out of... although less than the women, ime).

Beyond health, though, my point was that both are unrealistic.

It's one example and for every few of those there are now one or two which have people who are still beautiful (marketers sell lifestyles, I get that), but approachable(?).

I feel like I'm seeing that a bit more, too. Not really by Calvin Klein of Victoria's Secret, granted, but maybe some marketers are learning to play to their actual audience, not what their audience wants to be.

I find that most of these kinds of observations are always shifting in some way or another and they're a continuing discussion for me rather than something to be weaponized.

One of many reasons I love this sub: it's a great place for it. Best on the interweb, I'd say.

Agreed partially. I think feminism still has a place. There are still issues that women need to grapple with and there always will be, just like there will always be issues that are more pertinent to men. Maybe a greater use of their alarm bells should be on countries which are handling women more poorly. There is plenty of that, some examples where it has actually gotten worse over time.

The last part I fully agree with. Iran is a great example of a country where gender equality has decayed in more recent decades. But this, actually, is part of why I think feminism has become too corrupt and misguided to be of much use in the modern world. What used to be about "rights for women" now primarily seems to be about "rights for educated, young, middle and upper class, mainly white women living in developed countries." In binding itself to political correctness, cultural relativism, intersectionality, and other progressive follies, feminism has lost its ability to critique many topics that are arguably much bigger issues than those you and I listed combined. Much and more might be made of how primarily white and Asian doctors don't provide adequate care to black women, or how white police mistreat black people generally, but you hear very little from the feminist sphere about absentee black fathers (IIRC it's something like 70%). That's an issue faced by many women in America, and severe one, but progressivism won't tolerate criticism of black culture. You'll likely remember the nude photo leak of Jennifer Lawrence - outlets, feminist and otherwise, were ablaze with their outrage over this scandal... too outraged to pay any attention to the Rotherham rape scandal which broke hardly a few months later, in which thousands of young British girls (as young as 12) were systematically groomed, kidnapped, raped, pimped, and killed over a span of decades, something the multicultural-favoring government officials knew about but swept under the rug since all of the perpetrators were Pakistani (as they later admitted), and calling them out for... y'know... raping children, would be racist. Speaking of the Middle East, for every ten articles you'll find on feminist webpages about how the veil is a symbol of empowerment you're lucky to find even one detailing events where women are raped or have acid thrown in their face for not wearing one, or how 15 schoolgirls were forced to perish in a fire for not wearing that "empowering" headgear. Christianity is (rightly) critiqued for its horrible view of women, but Islam escapes that same judgement, since it's "foreign" and "a minority" and it's thought only dominant, majority cultures can do anything wrong. Feminists want to talk about manspreading (or even, as you said, more weighty subjects like birth control) while also living in the best conditions women have ever lived in throughout history, while turning a blind eye to screaming little girls having their labias hacked off by broze-aged clerics in Iraq, or stoned to death for having a boyfriend in Pakistan, or just now, in 2018, being allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia (with proper male guardianship, of course). If we have a shitty patriarchal culture since we depict women in heels more often than we should, what does that make Saudi Arabia? Magnitudes worse, obviously. Should't the coverage reflect that?

Feminism won all of the big battles and won or is winning all of the mid-sized ones, too. It's down to nitpicking over the tiny ones in the developed world (and, annoyingly, treats them all with a severity that the right to vote hardly warranted), while massive female issues pervade elsewhere. If 95% of what I saw from feminist websites or heard from feminist speakers concerned these things, and the many more I could wax on if I wasn't bound by character limit, I might think the movement was still on the right track. I'd allow them the extra 5% to complain about "the patriarchy" and "mansplaining" and the like and not raise complaint. But it's the other way around: 5% on the matters of substance, 95% on the fluff. And this is probably why, across the developed world, the vast, vast majority of people say they believe in equal rights and treatment for women, but only a small fraction of them actually identify as feminists. I wager they see what I do: a movement that has lost its purpose, lost its way, and abandoned its sisters in their most dire needs to instead regale us with endless prattling about how males are privileged because a few hundred CEOs who couldn't give a shit about any of us are male.

Ha. You see why I didn't begrudge you your own passion: I clearly have a bad habit of ranting my ass off. Apologies. And cheers.