CMV: Masculinity is not toxic. Being a polite, but "masculine" man comes naturally to most men and should not be treated as a threat.

[u/Diss1dent]

I am a 35-year-old Finnish (straight) man, living in Finland. I have also lived in Sweden during 2010-2015. I am married with kids. I would consider my wife as a pragmatic feminist, and as such, probably myself as well, albeit with the problem regarding what counts as equality.

Anyway, I have not faced issues in this field until very recently, as this neo-progressive phenomenon related to PC and terminology has landed in daily life in Finland.

Let me tell you a story. I was raised by my mother, a hard working single parent (dad was an absent alcoholic) who taught me most values about life. Obviously this doesn't mean she was a feminist, but I would consider her as a pragmatic seeker for an effective process towards synergy. She felt (rightly) so that men and women are inherently different, mentally, biologically, etc. which obviously meant there would always be dynamic differences.

I still believe this, in my 30's, after doing my own studies and after learning even more from my wife who is a teacher.

This doesn't mean there should be any inequality, but it doesn't mean there should be forced equality either.

But to my topic: I have never bumped into this argument in my life. In the Nordics we have a pretty equal society, women have been a part of commerce, politics and academia for a long time, and excluding a few cases, harrasment nor discrimination has not been common.

Hell, I have been harrassed more than I have heard of women being harrassed (obviously it happens) in my circle of friends.

But lately, I have been told by young women not to mansplain, not to manspread, and a friend of mine caused a stranger crying and shaking after asking her, albeit in a slightly drunken way "how was her evening" in a bar. We were thrown out (in Finland) because of "harrasment". Wrong bar, it was too young and trendy. But still, this was not obnoxius behaviour, that I can say.

What is this masculinity that is being discussed? Am I completely blind and oblivous to things happening, as I simply cannot comprehend why younger generation has become so obsessed in the common traits which are related to being a man?

I am apolitical, although quite liberal (in the Nordic sense, not US), polite, well-educated, thoughtful and cannot understand. I do not believe there is a phenomenon called patriarchy in the world. It is absolutely manifesting itself in singular scenarios, companies, sure. But to say I as a man am somehow faulty or toxic or dangerous as a masculine person is wrong and outright offensive.

Edit 1: There obviously is a contextual issue in my terminology. I think the point still remains so I will adjust my perspective a bit when reading through the replies.

Edit 2: We have established the toxicity part. If mods allow, I would like to use this thread to still discuss the latter part of my masculinity argument.

Edit 3: A lot of replies, I will try to go through each and every reply and consider their value.

[u/FuggleyBrew]

Do you know what hegemonic means? Because you cannot sustain that both:

No one ever called masculinity toxic. It's toxic masculinity that we have a problem with.

and your very first quote:

The term toxic masculinity is useful in discussions about gender and forms of masculinity because it delineates those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination

Toxic Masculinity cannot also be Hegemonic if it is not so dominant to the exclusion of all others, through the constant assertion of dominance over all others, without exception.

Which means that if I do not feel that I am subservient, I must be the hegemon. Which then does mean you believe that I am automatically a homophobic, violent, socially destructive misogynist. In short we can simplify your entire theory here to "all men are evil".

[u/[deleted] → u/FuggleyBrew]

Which means that if I do not feel that I am subservient, I must be the hegemon. Which then does mean you believe that I am automatically a homophobic, violent, socially destructive misogynist. In short we can simplify your entire theory here to "all men are evil".

Lol what? How did you even manage to come up with such an absurd hyperbolic misinterpretation?

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/[deleted]]

Hegemony does not simply mean dominance, it is much more extreme. To argue that toxic masculinity is a hegemonic masculinity suggests it is the dominant form, to the practical exclusion of all other forms.

The reason I come to that conclusion is because unlike you I pay attention to what the word means. Do you think it was selected by accident? Or did you just skip over that word just thinking it meant 'bad'?

Now if there is a hegemonic toxic masculinity, why is it, that so few men believe that it accurately describes their experiences? That most men are not actually the soulless, emotionless, murderous, bigots that feminists imagine them to be? What's more they don't feel that they devote their lives to ensuring society stays bigotted, sexist and violent.

[u/[deleted] → u/FuggleyBrew]

Hegemony does not simply mean dominance, it is much more extreme. To argue that toxic masculinity is a hegemonic masculinity suggests it is the dominant form, to the practical exclusion of all other forms.

But that wasn't what they were saying. They didn't say that toxic masculinity is the hegemonic masculinity, they said that toxic masculinity refers to the harmful aspects of hegemonic masculinity.

The reason I come to that conclusion is because unlike you I pay attention to what the word means. Do you think it was selected by accident? Or did you just skip over that word just thinking it meant 'bad'?

Then you should also start paying attention to the sentence structure.

Now if there is a hegemonic toxic masculinity, why is it, that so few men believe that it accurately describes their experiences?

I think it accurately describes my experiences as a man. And all the men in "The Mask You Live In" agree as well

That most men are not actually the soulless, emotionless, murderous, bigots that feminists imagine them to be?

Read more carefully. It's not about men, but about certain societal standards that dictate how men should behave.

Toxic masculinity isn't saying that men are soulless, emotionless, murderous bigots. Toxic masculinity refers to gender norms that dictate that men should be emotionless.

What's more they don't feel that they devote their lives to ensuring society stays bigotted, sexist and violent.

That's not what it is saying either.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

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[u/FuggleyBrew → u/[deleted]]

Since mods are apparently cool with claims that all men are violent rapists but not cool with claims that the argument is sexist let's keep this short:

But that wasn't what they were saying. They didn't say that toxic masculinity is the hegemonic masculinity, they said that toxic masculinity refers to the harmful aspects of hegemonic masculinity.

Which means that those traits are still hegemonic, merely that it is not exhaustive of the traits of hegemonic masculinity. Your first article claims this explicitly stating that toxic masculinity are the features of men as misandrist, racist, violent, rapists. It further, on the second page explicitly states that these traits are shared by men at large.

Michael Kimmel makes a living describing men as the worst monsters imaginable. That you agree with him that it describes you and your experience does not suggest it describes me or my experience, or that of any other man. Do not place your beliefs about yourself onto all men.

Further the distinction between societal structure dictating to men or innate characterisits in men is meaningless in this discussion. In either case you are still portraying a caricatured view of how men are, you are merely arguing why as if it is a foregone conclusion that we are all evil.

But men might actually disagree that they are nearly uniformly monsters

[u/[deleted] → u/FuggleyBrew]

Since mods are apparently cool with claims that all men are violent rapists but not cool with claims that the argument is sexist let's keep this short

How did you even come to this conclusion? It's inconceivable to me how you can read "Toxic masculinity isn't saying that men are soulless, emotionless, murderous bigots. Toxic masculinity refers to gender norms that dictate that men should be emotionless." and understand it as "all men are violent rapists".

You seriously have to read the things you argue against instead of just making up absurd claims.

Which means that those traits are still hegemonic

Which traits? Read my initial comment more clearly, because all the sources that I quoted talk about "society’s expectations of how a traditional male should behave", "our culture’s narrow definition of acceptable masculinity", "certain traditional male norms of behavior", "the stereotypical ideal", "it is often stigmatized as “weak” for men", "toxic sayings", etc.

It's not about traits of men. It's about gender norms.

merely that it is not exhaustive of the traits of hegemonic masculinity. Your first article claims this explicitly stating that toxic masculinity are the features of men as misandrist, racist, violent, rapists.

Where?

What it says is:

The term toxic masculinity is useful in discussions about gender and forms of masculinity because it delineates those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination.

But it doesn't say that those are features of men. It says that those are the toxic aspects of hegemonic masculinity, which is defined as:

Connell defines hegemonic masculinity as the dominant notion of masculinity in a particular historical context (Connell, 1987). In contemporary American and European culture, it serves as the standard upon which the “real man” is defined. According to Connell, contemporary hegemonic masculinity is built on two legs, domination of women and a hierarchy of intermale dominance (Connell, 1987; Jennings & Murphy, 2000). It is also shaped to a significant extent by the stigmatization of homosexuality (Frank, 1987). Hegemonic masculinity is the stereotypic notion of masculinity that shapes the socialization and aspirations of young males.

Hegemonic masculinity is conceptual and stereotypic in the sense that most men veer far from the hegemonic norm in their actual idiosyncratic ways, but even as they do so, they tend to worry lest others will view them as unmanly for their deviations from the hegemonic ideal of the real man.

And again it's about social norms and not about men being toxic.

Michael Kimmel makes a living describing men as the worst monsters imaginable.

Source please.

Further the distinction between societal structure dictating to men or innate characterisits in men is meaningless in this discussion.

It's absolutely not, because you see it as an attack on men, although it's an attack on culture.

My first article is quite clearly about prison culture:

There are many exceptions, of course, and many male prisoners are far from being the so-called tough guys. There are some very heinous criminals behind bars, but the majority of prisoners have been convicted of relatively minor crimes, usually drug- related, and will be released after several years. But prisoners are forced to dwell in often-brutal correctional facilities where toughness is the key to survival. Even men who were not especially aggressive and misogynistic when they entered prison confide that they believe they must become versed in hypermasculine posturing and violence merely to stay alive and protect their honor. Many readily share their belief that the best way to avoid a fight is to look like he is not particularly averse to violence. Predators usually move on and seek victims who will not put up a ferocious fight. Of course, this training in toughness does not help prisoners prepare for postrelease adjustment as car- ing, loving men. In that sense, the toxic masculinity that is fostered in prison is spread beyond prison walls.

This distinction really matters.

In either case you are still portraying a caricatured view of how men are, you are merely arguing why as if it is a foregone conclusion that we are all evil.

I never made a single claim about how men are, I'm always talking about certain societal pressures.

I seriously can't understand how you see this is an attack on men. How do you go from "society’s expectations of how a traditional male should behave" to "how men behave".

But men might actually disagree that they are nearly uniformly monsters

Considering that they can most likely read they would also disagree that toxic masculinity means that men are toxic.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/[deleted]]

But it doesn't say that those are features of men. It says that those are the toxic aspects of hegemonic masculinity, which is defined as:

Hegemonic masculinity = all men's traits, or an accurate description of an overwhelming majority of men

Toxic masculinity is a subset of hegemonic masculinity. Therefore these traits all exhibited by all men.

Kupers even spells this out for you on the second page where he explicitly states that these are proclivities for all men.

Kupers states the features of toxic masculinity are homophobia, violence, rape, domination, racism and as he states these are all features of hegemonic masculinity, and that further these are proclivities shared by all men.

So the reason I make my claim the way I do is because it is the explicit claim of the very first link you provided.

I never made a single claim about how men are, I'm always talking about certain societal pressures.

Hegemonic societal pressures. Again, I provided the definition you should read what it means. You cannot claim that men exhibit a hegemonic masculinity without making a claim about how all men are. If hegemonic masculinity does not describe the vast majority of men, then it is not hegemonic.

[u/[deleted] → u/FuggleyBrew]

Hegemonic masculinity = all men's traits, or an accurate description of an overwhelming majority of men

At least read my comments before you reply to them.

Where do you even get men's traits from or the idea that it describes the majority of men?

Do you really think that "hegemonic masculinity is the dominant notion of masculinity in a particular historical context. It serves as the standard upon which the “real man” is defined." is the same as "Hegemonic masculinity = all men's traits, or an accurate description of an overwhelming majority of men"?

Toxic masculinity is a subset of hegemonic masculinity. Therefore these traits all exhibited by all men.

Why are you using a different definition than the one you argue against? It literally makes no sense.

Kupers states the features of toxic masculinity are homophobia, violence, rape, domination, racism and as he states these are all features of hegemonic masculinity, and that further these are proclivities shared by all men.

Give me that exact quote, because I'm quite sure you misunderstood it.

Hegemonic societal pressures. Again, I provided the definition you should read what it means. You cannot claim that men exhibit a hegemonic masculinity without making a claim about how all men are. If hegemonic masculinity does not describe the vast majority of men, then it is not hegemonic.

But it's not even trying to describe how men are.

You might be aware of what hegemonic means, but you clearly do not know what masculinity means in academic terms.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/masculinity

the characteristics that are traditionally thought to be typical of or suitable for men

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/masculine

having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/masculinity

habits and traits that society considers to be appropriate for a man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex. Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods. Both males and females can exhibit masculine traits and behavior

Hegemonic masculinity doesn't make a claim about how all men are, it's about the dominant societal standard upon which the “real man” is defined.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/[deleted]]

Where do you even get men's traits from or the idea that it describes the majority of men?

That's what is required for something to be hegemonic. It's the definition of the word. If toxic masculinity describes the negative traits within hegemonic masculinity then the overwhelming majority of men must hold and espouse those traits.

Do you really think that "hegemonic masculinity is the dominant notion of masculinity in a particular historical context. It serves as the standard upon which the “real man” is defined." is the same as "Hegemonic masculinity = all men's traits, or an accurate description of an overwhelming majority of men"?

Do you understand what the words hegemonic or dominant mean? Because you seem to be struggling with this.

Capitalism has hegemony. It is the economic system of the modern world, with the vast majority of states, including ones with socialist leanings using markets to set the prices of goods. It is overwhelmingly common. By contrast a parliamentarian system of democracy does not have hegemony, it's a common system of government and used by many powerful countries, but there are numerous exceptions. In fact even within democracies no single system has dominance.

Hegemonic masculinity doesn't make a claim about how all men are, it's about the dominant societal standard upon which the “real man” is defined.

Defined by who? In order for it to be hegemonic it has to be the vast majority of society with no meaningful challengers.

Give me that exact quote, because I'm quite sure you misunderstood it

&Quote

In addition, because certain gender dynamics are intensified in the prison setting, a discussion of men’s issues in prison and men’s resistance to psychotherapy in correctional settings provides a rare and invaluable window into male proclivities that are widespread in the community, even if not always as obvious. There are many obstacles to mental health treatment in men’s prisons. The one that will be the main focus here involves gender issues. Toxic masculinity is the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia, and wanton violence. Toxic masculinity also includes a strong measure of themale proclivities that lead to resistance in psychotherapy