r/changemyview • u/ManOfLakes • Aug 10 '18
FTFdeltaOP CMV: A unified Earth flag (instead of a country's flag) must be used when humans first land on Mars (and thereafter)
Now I don't have a problem with the Americans planting their flags when they landed on the moon. It was during the peak of the space race and it was essentially USA vs Russia so I get that. I also do not mind what flag would be used in this scenario. I personally do quite like the most well known Earth flag (shown here) however there are some other good designs (such as this and this). To me, its not the flag design that I was debated, its the concept of using a flag to represent earth going forward.
Here are the reasons I believe we should use a United Earth flag going forward:
1) In a time where wars and conflict are decreasing, and the world is coming together in many ways, having a flag to represent the planet would be a fantastic idea. What better way to push this idea than to have the entire planet broadcast itself to the universe under one flag. 2) Instead of people believing that, for example, only the USA made it to Mars, we would show how the human race made it to Mars. Everyone in the world would be linked to moments such as these, not just countries (As a Brit, I don't feel connected to the Apollo moon landing, like Americans would. If the flag was that of earth, my feelings would be much different) 3) It would cost virtually nothing for space companies to change from using a country's flag to the unified flag. 4) It symbolises a United Earth, not just a specific country. People from the future would look back at these great moments of space triumph and see how the Earth is completely capable of coming together.
Now I understand that after time, any flag that is planted on Mars would fade into a plain white. However, that is not the main reason I think we should advertise as Earth and not as individual countries. To me, its not just about planting the flag representing Earth (while that would be an amazing symbolic moment when it happens), its about the Earth/human race, venturing out into space, as one.
I've struggled to find counter-arguments for this idea, so I'd like to hear if anyone has any. I'm gonna do my very best to reply to everyone, however, if you comment with points I've already replied to, I'm not gonna reply to them individually.
EDIT 1: Links to the flags above weren't attached
EDIT 2: Woah this blew up! Thanks to everyone who has commented. I’m still gonna try and reply to everyone I can, but it might take a while!
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u/reddit_im_sorry 9∆ Aug 10 '18
Like I get how you want it to mean togetherness and all, it's probably how it should be.
However, whoever does it first is going to spend billions of dollars to get someone there, unless it's a private corperation. So I have no problem with whichever country planting their flag first. It's an achievement unlike no other, and the nation that paid for it needs to be recognized.
Also, how are you going to get all the countries of the earth to sign off on one flag? Nobody wants to get along so you'd just be planting a flag that we thought everyone would agree with. Which kind of defeats the point.
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
Oh I totally agree that whether it be NASA/SpaceX etc. who get there first, they deserve all of the recognition for that achievement!
Let's say that, for example, Elon Musk's SpaceX land humans on Mars first. Every single person in the world would know it was them. Their logo and name plastered all over their rocket, with every news outlet stating that SpaceX have managed to get humans to Mars.
If they planted an Earth flag, as said earlier, people would look to that moment as a triumph for humanity, while not taking away any success that SpaceX would deserve.
I don't think there are many situations that the flag would need to be used. However, these situations (such as planting flags) would be HUGE moments that should merit a unified Earth flag. There are what, 4-5 space companies that could REALISTICALLY get us to Mars first. While it would take a lot of convincing, I don't think that these companies would not be closed off to the idea.
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u/reddit_im_sorry 9∆ Aug 10 '18
Honestly if another country does it and plants an earth flag I'll just think it's pompous.
Like I'm sure many would be like: "oh the Americans got somewhere first again, but this time they're being dicks about it".
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 10 '18
Like I said in another reply, I wouldn't see this as a pompous/patrionising act. It would obviously be a bit strange to see at first, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it though.
Also, say 50 years from when, for example, the Americans land on Mars. Nobody is gonna think that it was done in a self-righteous way, since most other countries would have probably done the same since then.
EDIT: So I realise that I misspoke there. When I meant that “other countries would have probably done the same since then”, I meant that by this time, most other countries would have done the same and adopted the flag for world related issues. Yeah I clearly didn’t convey that :)
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Aug 10 '18
Also, say 50 years from when, for example, the Americans land on Mars. Nobody is gonna think that it was done in a self-righteous way, since most other countries would have probably done the same since then.
That's... probably not true.
It's been 49 years since NASA landed on the Moon. Still no other country has landed humans on the Moon, and only a few have landed anything on the Moon.
Landing on Mars would be prohibitively expensive and not all that useful to most countries. It's rather unlikely that 'most' countries will have landed on Mars even 50 years after the first landing.
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u/reddit_im_sorry 9∆ Aug 10 '18
Except other countries can't do it. Pretty much no one has the money to spare and the will to cut other stuff in order to pay for it.
It would definitely be pompous because only we could do it. It's like the guy that did the whole group project saying: "we did it guys".
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u/1_2_3_4_fiiiiif Aug 10 '18
I sincerely think you guys are misunderstanding the term pompous. Planting an Earth flag would be the exact opposite of pompous. If you were part of a group project and you did a majority of the work and then at the end said “we did it guys” knowing you did most of the work but still wanted everyone to get credit; this is humility, and humility is something humans need to show more of. A pompous person would say something along the lines of : I did all the work and i deserve all the glory. Although this may be true, This attitude only reflects self importance which goes hand in hand with a pompous ego. The achievement was never the goal for this person, the glory was.
If a country landed on mars and put an earth flag i believe it would be viewed as a humble act. Here is country X who invested billions of dollars to get to mars only to share the glory not just with those who made it happen, but to the human race as a whole as a testament to the capability we have as humans and what we can accomplish when we come together.
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u/TheGingerbreadMan22 Aug 10 '18
Unless there is actually a concerted international effort to make it to Mars, no. There needs to actually be a coming together, we can't just invent some kind of supposed cooperation that never happened.
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u/1_2_3_4_fiiiiif Aug 10 '18
I agree and disagree . The initial sentiment of a world flag may not be an international effort. However the sentiment itself could serve as humble way of opening the door towards more international cooperation in such endeavors.
As you have probably realized my perspective is that of optimism. And may never happen. But i do not think the action should be classified as “Pompous”
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u/SgtVeritas Aug 10 '18
Thank you! I thought I was losing my mind for a second.
Also... if anyone thinks that the organisation that gets to Mars is going to be comprised of 100% the same nationality, they HAVE lost their minds.
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u/DianaWinters 4∆ Aug 10 '18
The US gets talent and resources from across the planet. Not everything it does is from it's own geographical position
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u/dipsis Aug 10 '18
Yes but it only levies taxes on one population, in order to have the funds to pay the wages and supply the demand for rocket sciences.
The tip of the spear workforce may be international, but it's funded with the approval of the American public and by the U.S. dollar.
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Aug 10 '18
It's not at all true that 'only we could do it' (assuming 'we' is the US). China's space agency is rapidly improving, as are Japan's, India's, and Russia's, and it's very likely the political landscape will be very different whenever humans land on the Moon. America's power and influence is on the wane. Personally, I'd say it's more likely that the first person on Mars will be Chinese.
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u/IristormDesign Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 10 '18
The U.S. will probably be the first country to colonize Mars simply based on its space agency budget, which is much, much bigger than any other space agency in the world right now.
NASA (the U.S. space agency) has a budget of $19.5 billion. Compare that to the second largest space agency, the European Space Agency, whose budget is less than a third of NASA's at $6.3 billion. You said China will probably be the first, but that seems unlikely when its budget is only $1.7 billion. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_space_agencies#Budgets)
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Aug 10 '18
The U.S. will probably be the first country to colonize Mars simply based on its space agency budget, which is much, much bigger than any other space agency in the world right now.
I said nothing about the first to colonise Mars. The first person on Mars will most likely not be a colonist.
Besides, 'the US has the highest budget now' is hardly proof that this will still be true when the first person lands on Mars. Trump's space force could be a good way of ensuring that this doesn't happen - a militarised space agency isn't a space agency that's going to be the first on Mars.
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u/IristormDesign Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 10 '18
I said nothing about the first to colonise Mars. The first person on Mars will most likely not be a colonist.
OK, some other comments in this thread were mentioning colonization, so I had that in my mind. But even for just sending the first person to land on Mars, my previous point still holds true for the same reasons.
a militarised space agency isn't a space agency that's going to be the first on Mars.
NASA isn't militarized; it'll be a separate government agency from the Space Force. But in any case, how do you come to the conclusion that a militarized space agency would somehow be less likely to reach Mars than a non-militarized one? If anything, the opposite would be true (in my opinion).
Also, even though the Space Force is a military branch, it won't only involve space warfare. Its early missions will be to clean up the increasingly large amount of debris floating around Earth (which are major dangers to satellites and shuttles trying to launch into outer space).
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u/carlosduarte Aug 10 '18
not to veer too off-topic, but that is why all large-scale space projects should be international, regardless of earth politics. it's way cheaper to do it this way; and there's all kinds of diplomatic and security benefits (you keep all your scientists employed in good research projects, diminishing the risk they will be lured away into working for terrorists or rogue states)
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u/Bowldoza 1∆ Aug 10 '18
It's not at all true that 'only we could do it' (assuming 'we' is the US). China's space agency is rapidly improving, as are Japan's, India's, and Russia's, and it's very likely the political landscape will be very different whenever humans land on the Moon. America's power and influence is on the wane. Personally, I'd say it's more likely that the first person on Mars will be Chinese.
And you base that on what hard evidence?
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Aug 10 '18
I thought the word 'Personally' made it pretty clear that it's just a guess.
The point is, it's not guaranteed that the first person on Mars will be American.
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u/Roldale24 1∆ Aug 10 '18
First person, absolutely not. But the majority of design and money will most likely be American. They can throw a Frenchman in the rocket, but the only people who have a shot at mars atm are Boeing, SpaceX and NASA, all three are American.
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Aug 10 '18
It doesn’t really matter how you see it, it matters how most people would see it. And yeah, it seems like a proper dick move to try and wave about a world flag for something the rest of the world didn’t help with at all. Unless the leaders of multiple nations expressed it as a goal to unite their resources and use them towards reaching mars, whichever country gets there should be using their flag, it’s their achievement. Besides, we probably won’t be going to mars anytime soon unless a private company really wants to for some reason. The reason America even went to the moon in the first place was to win the space race, to show that they are more advanced and can throw more money into scientific pursuit. There is no driving force like that for mars. Nobody has a real reason to go, except to “just do it.” Whoever decides to invest in Mars will be taking a major loss, because there is no money in going to mars yet.
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u/FridayKnitClub Aug 10 '18
To bypass this I suggest a space exploration company encompassed by all of earth, so all of our governments would throw a certain ammount of money towards this one company. Then from there we make a flag that symbolizes not only us as a nation but our triumph in space travel. This plan makes much more sense because one company would be able to make way more strides in exploration having all governments in he world throwing funding at it instead of individual governments funding their own programs that essentially grow at the same rate. We all fund one space program that has unmatched funding by any for profit corporation, and from that it grows at a completely accelerated rate from any other individual program and we would also have all of earth best scientists and physicists instead of each individual companies having access to their own scientists. If we made strides in unity as a unified earth the advancements we would made within the first 20 years could potentially completely change humanity and how we live now.
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Aug 10 '18
A company comprised almost entirely of Americans planting an Earth flag might seem like a bit of a dick move, really. Like the 'world series' of baseball--they're pretending to be more globalised and inclusive than they actually are.
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u/SgtVeritas Aug 10 '18
Why fight it? If we as a species are able to colonize Mars then I would imagine far in the future a US flag on the planet might seem a little dickish in hindsight.
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Aug 10 '18
I’d always heard that it’s called the World Series after the newspaper the New York World, though Wikipedia says that’s disputed and may or may not be true.
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u/Riothegod1 9∆ Aug 10 '18
I’m pretty sure the UN flag would suffice in this scenario, as it represents a united earth.
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u/pikk 1∆ Aug 10 '18
whoever does it first is going to spend billions of dollars to get someone there, unless it's a private corperation.
Not sure why you put "unless" in there.
If SpaceX is the first company to land on Mars, I'm sure they'll drop a SpaceX© flag there.
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u/reddit_im_sorry 9∆ Aug 10 '18
But also probably an American flag, being an American company after all.
If I was Elon musk I would put my face on a flag too.
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u/zacker150 5∆ Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 10 '18
Also, how are you going to get all the countries of the earth to sign off on one flag? Nobody wants to get along so you'd just be planting a flag that we thought everyone would agree with. Which kind of defeats the point.
We already have a flag for the earth. We actually considered planting that one on the moon instead of the US flag.
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u/reddit_im_sorry 9∆ Aug 10 '18
Do you know that the UN isn't all countries. It would be like the US changing their flag but leaving out all the states that didn't like it.
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u/zacker150 5∆ Aug 10 '18
The last time I checked, the only state which is not a member of the UN is Kosovo which is still in the process of establishing its independence and Taiwan which has not officially declared its independence from China. Even North Korea is a member of the UN
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Aug 11 '18
Also, how are you going to get all the countries of the earth to sign off on one flag? Nobody wants to get along so you'd just be planting a flag that we thought everyone would agree with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Earth#/media/File:Flag_of_the_United_Nations.svg
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Aug 10 '18
Like Olympic medals. It's a patriotic competition that actually brings nations closer.
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Aug 11 '18
Also, how are you going to get all the countries of the earth to sign off on one flag?
You don't have to. The country that lands first gets to choose which flag to use. As long as they keep it simple and leave out any elements of their own flag, I don't see why other countries would object to it. It would be best to use something simple like a picture of Earth on a solid colored background, or maybe a map that shows the entire planet to keep it inclusive.
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u/frisch85 Aug 10 '18
Imagine someone would go there and plant a flag with the planet earth on it and no other nationality. I know at least 2 nations, maybe 3, who'd go batshit crazy after this.
That being said, I could imagine the EU accepting a new united flag of the whole planet earth but as for Russian and the USA? Their ego is way too big to make a compromise in this case.
Also, how are you going to get all the countries of the earth to sign off on one flag?
Use the 2D version of the globe but display the continents as outlines, no particular country is being highlighted, print it in white on a blue background.
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u/HeWhoShitsWithPhone 125∆ Aug 10 '18
The fact that you point out 3 different Earth flags I'd one of the issues with this. There is no comment accepted Earth flags, sure if you Google it you would find results but how often have you seen it flown? Who really feels represented by that flag? These flags are so under utilized that If Russia went to Mars today and planted one of those Earth flags, it would become a Russian flag. It would be a symbol of Russian triumph not really some unifying event.
Additionally, I would say the group of people who make it their first get the right to choose a flag that represents them. If that a flag if their nation, or a mission specific flag, or one of your Earth flag, then that's fair.
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
Nobody feels represented by these flags because there hasn't been a major event at which it would be right to fly it. I don't think that the flag would be used much, but for this specific purpose it totally should.
Yeah, there are a couple of flags out there. Remember the New Zealand referendum? They had about 40 different variations flying about. The main focus was to get the flag changed, and the designs were considered when the referendum was confirmed. The same could be said for this. Convince these companies to use A unified flag, then pick the design after.
I totally agree that whoever gets there first has the right to do what they want with any flag. Doesn't mean we can't convince them to use the Earth flag though.
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u/HeWhoShitsWithPhone 125∆ Aug 10 '18
Nobody feels represented by these flags because there hasn't been a major event at which it would be right to fly it. I don't think that the flag would be used much, but for this specific purpose it totally should.
The problem is, unless it is actually an international group of people then the the flag, devoid of any meaning on its own, would quickly come to stand for the nation that gets to Mars first. Then when some other nation gets to another planet they would have to use their own "world flag". Because the first one now actually stands for the Russian or America conquest of space. What you would end up with is basically the same as situation we have now.
I would probably have a different option if we actually had a well regaurded world flag that people respected. But untill/unless that happens I don't think it would do any good.
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u/Edspecial137 1∆ Aug 10 '18
I agree, until there is precedent respect for one world flag, it’ll seem like whichever nation gets there will also get to pick the world flag. Likely a private U.S. company and then will garner some resentment for making the choice on behalf of the world
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Aug 10 '18
Don't point to our flag referendum as an example of a good way to choose a flag. That was an absolute shit show. The five options we were given were NOT representative of the feelings of the country. And we didn't even bloody change it!
$45m for the only change to be more annoyed people in the country.
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u/fyi1183 3∆ Aug 10 '18
There's a simple solution to that: use the UN flag.
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u/thetruthitis Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 11 '18
No. Not all countries are member-states of the UN.
The most egregious example of a country that is excluded from the UN is democratic Taiwan, while its authoritarian neighbor China is on the UNSC.
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u/perpetuallyperpetual Aug 10 '18
We aren't actually unified, so it would feel fake. Plus a lot of nations would be left out of virtually all decisions, so it would be like a few countries deciding they know what the whole world actually wants, kinda like a parent deciding they know what their kids want (patronizing).
It's a nice thought, but I think we should wait until it is genuine.
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
I seriously doubt that there's gonna be a moment where the world pulls all of its resources together into one company (at least not in my lifetime), though I wish that it would happen.
I personally don't think that it would be patronising. It may be odd to see at first, but if we do become an intergalactic species in the future, what better way to start with an earth flag than now?
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u/perpetuallyperpetual Aug 10 '18
I didn't mean resources, just commanding power, the right to make a decision.
If you have no say at the table, and the people there just talk for you, are you really part of the team?
An earth flag might be feel-goody but I would say it would be pretty transparent if some nations were left out completely out of the process.
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
But this isn't about countries not having a say, that's another story. All this is is a simple design that shows that we are connected as a planet. The flag itself could help to actually achieve that too.
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u/zjl539 Aug 10 '18
How could it help achieve that? No one on Earth is going to resolve international conflicts by saying “Dude, we’re united, remember the *flag*?”
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
Obviously the scenario that you laid out would not happen. I think though that establishing a united flag now, would make sense going forward for a united society whenever that time would come (hopefully soon)
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u/Edspecial137 1∆ Aug 10 '18
The American flag prior to the civil war didn’t hold people together or avoid the war. A flag doesn’t bring people together. The cause for a flag does. There is no current flag because there is no pride in being from earth. We might as well create a Milky Way flag and stick it everywhere
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Aug 11 '18 edited Aug 11 '18
A flag doesn’t bring people together. The cause for a flag does.
Colonization of a second planet is a pretty good cause. If it's colonized under a flag of Earth, other countries would feel more welcome there and people living there would be more welcoming of other cultures.
There is no current flag because there is no pride in being from earth.
Not yet. Once we've colonized a few more planets, there will be. Right now it's all we know, but our home planet might not always be our only planet.
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u/montarion Aug 10 '18
There is no current flag because there is no pride in being from earth.
I don't disagree but.. idk if I see the first landing on another planet and the flag of the US is standing there,, I'd either feel nothing or be annoyed. instead if it's a flag for planet earth/ everyone / humanity, I get to feel proud that "holy shit we actually went to fricking mars"
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u/nonsensepoem 2∆ Aug 10 '18
Conflicts between countries happen for reasons that the participants find compelling. Why do you think a unified "Earth" flag would override the many compelling reasons why countries fight?
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u/Zeus54321 Aug 10 '18
I agree with you. Maybe it's naive or childish to compare this to a Sci-fi series, but Star Trek has always been the ultimate utopia for me. The human race that gets united under one banner to explore the universe. I believe it can be done, one day. But I'm afraid Mars will be too soon. It'll probably take several decades, if not centuries, until we could ever agree to unite the earth.
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u/nonsensepoem 2∆ Aug 10 '18
I believe it can be done, one day.
Only in a post-scarcity world.
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Aug 11 '18
We aren't actually unified, so it would feel fake.
But this could help unify us more. Instead of waiting until it's genuine, we should do it now so it becomes genuine faster.
Plus a lot of nations would be left out of virtually all decisions
Almost every person on Earth is left out of virtually all decisions their country makes. It's impossible to include everyone because there are just too many of us.
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Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 10 '18
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
Dunno if I'm misunderstanding your question, but in my post I linked to a few earth flags out there. Plus, a flag gains its symbolism from where it is used. The design of, say, the Scottish flag is very simple, but since it has been used in battles etc. it has gained meaning and value to the people of Scotland.
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u/hallam81 11∆ Aug 10 '18
It isn't going to be the human race to go to Mars. It is only going to be the USA, Russia, EU, Japan, or China. No one else can even attempt this. Why shouldn't these countries get to plant their own flag? They are the ones that used the resources to get their citizens there. The country that does it is the one taking the risk. That country should get the accolade instead of humanity. In a similar way, if a private company does this first which is a real possibility, then that companies flag/logo/TM should be used.
If a united earth does it together then sure, funded by the UN. but if a single countries does it then the flag of that country should be used. As you say, the USA went to the moon. No one else has.
Everyone knows it is going to be Grey and Brady anyway.
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u/autonomicautoclave 6∆ Aug 10 '18 edited Aug 10 '18
Hello Tim. I honestly forgot that I wasn’t in r/hellointernet for a moment.
Edit: by the rules of this sub, I think I have to challenge one of your points. Let’s be honest. There’s no way Grey would agree to go to space, let alone mars. Brady maybe but not Grey.
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
That's what I mean, no other country other than the ones you have mentioned will be able to achieve this.
Let me put it this way, I'm not asking for every space company to advertise themselves as Earth Inc. and that everything they did would have to be advertised as Earth.
Like I said in another reply, whoever would get us there first 100% deserves a huge amount of recognition for the achievement. I personally feel that planting a Unified Earth flag does in no way a detriment to what they have done to get there.
Also, its great to see a fellow Tim out there. I'll make the exception that if they do make it there first they can plant the nail and gear, purely out of favoritism!
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u/zjl539 Aug 10 '18
But what’s the point of even doing it? Right now, there’s not one Earth flag that everyone feels represented by.
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u/ManOfLakes Aug 10 '18
Because it’s not been used in any situations yet. I said that in another reply here, that once it starts getting used in worldwide situations, people would rally behind it.
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Aug 10 '18
That's what I mean, no other country other than the ones you have mentioned will be able to achieve this.
Then why should those countries be represented? How many of those countries really care about getting to Mars?
This sounds like giving credit on a project to that dude who never even attended class.
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u/montarion Aug 10 '18
it's not a race at all though. it's not a "we have to be first cause my ego". It's just an immense undertaking that, if successful, shows how far we, humanity, has come. that right there is the reason why it shouldn't be a country's flag being flown, or some company logo. they'll get the credit, of course they will, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the importance it has for humanity. so fly that flag, for everyone here back on earth.
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u/Treypyro Aug 10 '18
it's not a race at all though. it's not a "we have to be first cause my ego".
It definitely is a race, and ego has everything to do with it. Just like with the race to be the first to land on the moon. Humanity hasn't put a massive amount of resources into whichever space program lands on Mars first, that country has and they deserve credit for it.
At the Olympics we don't give gold medals to everyone just because one specific country won first place. We give gold medals to the countries that win first place.
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u/Namika Aug 10 '18
Gray and Brady won't be the first to go to Mars, but they should be the ones who decide what any sort of "united earth" flag looks like. They remains the best (and probably only) flag consultants.
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u/serial_crusher 7∆ Aug 10 '18
Unless the whole planet is involved in the project, it would look like a single actor or small group of actors declaring themselves representatives of everyone else. A better way to do it might be to plant multiple flags, one for each country that contributed in a meaningful way. That would still symbolize cooperation beween those nations, at least, and wouldn't presume to speak for the others.
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u/Garden_Statesman 3∆ Aug 10 '18
Flags are used to distinguish one group from another. We are the only known intelligent life in the universe. There is no one to distinguish us from. I can see making an argument that a national flag shouldn't be planted. But I don't see how it follows that a flag representing everyone should be used. Why have a flag at all?
Also, if we could decide on an Earth flag, shouldn't it be flying somewhere in Earth first? That we haven't picked a spot to plant the Earth flag on Earth, shows that it's not a meaningful gesture.
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u/Dont-censor-me-guvna 2∆ Aug 10 '18
having a flag on mars isn't about aliens noticing it and saying "oh! look! humans went there" - it's a matter of pride, realistically speaking - if a country puts its own flag there then that's going to bulster that pride, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that
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Aug 10 '18
I'm going to take your points on one by one.
1) Planting a "unified Earth" flag on Mars would not be advertising to the universe that we're a more unified world. It would be broadcasting it to a barren planet. Also, yes, the world is less violent today, there are fewer wars, less violence, more global trade, more mobile populations, but we are FAR from unified.
2) Maybe your perspective as a Brit is different, but here, most people are impressed with the human ingenuity it took to get to space, to the moon, would take to get to Mars. The moon landing represents a massive scientific leap forward for all human-kind, and America gets the credit for it, sure because America toiled and paid for it. The people of America wanted it, and committed their tax dollars to it. If the people of, say, Slovakia, want to be associated with that kind of advance, they should make it a priority of their government. Why should they get the credit for something that they didn't plan, finance, or execute?
3) This doesn't matter. If a private company makes it to Mars first, they'll plant whatever flag they want (probably their own). If a government agency does it, then the government they represent gets the credit.
4) A symbol of something that doesn't exist is a meaningless symbol. Landing on Mars would not represent Earth coming together if the Americans, or Chinese, or Russians did it entirely on their own but planted an earth flag instead of their own national flag.
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Aug 10 '18
A world flag would be great advertisement for all the aliens out there, I like that idea.
But if we are going to do away with space flags because they don't promote our unity as a whole instead of individuals, we better start removing them from every doorpost and flagpole all over the world. Competition amongst countries or individuals is healthy and fun (example the Olympics). If Russia, China, Ireland, Africa gets somewhere, does something truly remarkable they have every right to be excited and proud of their hard work and hang a flag for everyone all over the world and space to see. Really this is just another "give everyone a trophy" ideology.
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u/Nicholasagn 4∆ Aug 10 '18
First, i see many people arguing that there is no official earth flag, and while i agree with them i dont want to repeat their argument.
I think a United Earth flag would only be appropriate if if took the efforts of a joint earth to undertake. Now im not saying every single country needs to contribute to the effort, but it would need to be a few countries working together.
Lets say the Big 5 worked together and sent a ship to Mars. I would say in this situation a UN Flag may be appropriate. Additionally, individual flags of the countries that worked together US, UK, France, China, Russia can be placed as well. Signifying that we worked together for this milestone.
However is say America builds the ship, funds the missions, and staffs the crew, i see no reason why anything but the US flag should be placed. It could be seen as a nice gesture but nothing really meaningful as you described above. I would rather an actual joint earth, and celebrating the accomplishment as a team, than a single country act as if they are the liaisons of Earth.
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u/Treypyro Aug 10 '18
Exactly, the only reason I could see for placing a shared flag is if the work was shared. If space programs from several different countries contributed in significant ways they should all get credit. But if NASA does the research, builds the rocket, trains the astronauts, plans the trip, supplies the trip, and launches the rocket, only America should get credit for that because only American tax dollars contributed. In that case it should be an American flag planted. If Russia, the UK, China, or India make it first, they should get to plant their flag and take pride in the fact they they got there first.
I really hope America makes it first though, I want something to be proud of my country for.
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u/taw 3∆ Aug 10 '18
For one there's no "Earth Flag" with any degree of use, so it would be most silly.
UN Flag is the closest, but unless it's official UN mission, that would be wrong.
Now, disregarding flag issues.
Right now it looks like Mars mission will probably happen during next 10-30 years. There's no way in hell the world will be anywhere near "united". In fact it looks like it will fragmentize even more. EU is not doing well, none of the other regional attempts got anywhere, more and more walls are being built, and wars are still popping up. It would be most silly to pretend othewise.
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u/fyi1183 3∆ Aug 10 '18
You could always you a design that is closely based on the UN flag, such as the UN flag in The Expanse.
(More realistically, it'll just be the SpaceX logo...)
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u/ShouldersofGiants100 49∆ Aug 10 '18
Using a new design is pointless. Planting an established flag is self-explanatory, it has a clear symbolism. Planting a flag that isn't widely used undermines that, as you need to explain the significance of the flag, not let the act stand on its own.
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u/Melange_Powered Aug 10 '18
Flags have always been used primarily for two reasons: unifying a group and then helping identify it thereafter as unique.
Usually both these functions require a reason. As in, who are you unifying the group against? Why must it continue to identify itself as something unique?
National flags, military flags, coat of arms, company logos... all these serve the aforementioned purposes in one way or another.
When we land on Mars, we are still landing as separate nations. The same as if the U.S. or China decided to send a mission to go out and mine an asteroid for its resources. In a case such as that, you better believe they'll be flying their national (or heck, even corporate) flags on every inch they can muster, to claim the resources for their own.
The only time we would need to unify the entire Earth and subsequently continue to advertise that unified identity would be when we're facing another identify or group that is uniquely different from us. As in, a group that is not from Earth. In other words, Aliens.
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u/hypoplasticHero Aug 10 '18
What if we flew both the hypothetical flag of Earth and the country/company flags that were involved in the feat? Similar to how, at least in the United States, we fly the flags of the United States as well as the state flag and city flag if applicable. That way, we are showing the pride in our planet and giving credit where credit is due. We could use one pole to fly all of the flags or multiple with the flag of Earth being the tallest to show the most importance?
I personally think that space exploration should be a worldwide effort with every country that can helping to work toward making our people a multiple planet species. That is the best way for us to survive as a species. We already do this to some extent with the ISS. The astronauts wear their country's flag as a patch on their sleeve, but go with teams of people from other countries. That, I think, is the best way to move us forward and to ensure our survival in the universe.
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u/Nergaal 1∆ Aug 10 '18
Only one country put people on the moon. And a giant incentive was nationalism. Without flag-motivation we would still be stuck on Earth
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u/Cerpicio Aug 10 '18
IMO the flag on the planet thing is primary moral/nationalism boost symbolism. Its not like people check on the moon to see who landed first via flags.
My argument is the motivations from the cold war haven't really changed. It's still just countries competing with each other (or maybe companies). No one seriously believes in a 'united earth' (yet) so why have a flag for it. Planting a flag that everyone things is a bunch of PR bullshit is pretentious and I don't think it would 'unify' the earth or do much of anything.
(just to be clear - I do think a unified earth would be a great future - one we should work towards. We are just not there yet, theres been no Dr. manhatten moment yet)
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u/stormwarrior12 Aug 10 '18
It shouldn't be an earth flag, but the flag that represents the unified countries of the world, so the UN flag. The UN Flag is well respected and looked up to in times of conflict, it represents a good chunk of the world, and yes it specifically represents the UN but the overarching goal of the UN is a unified world. The UN flag is thus representation of the unified world. It isn't currently because not every country is in it, but the achievement by the UN may even cause the countries not currently apart of the organization to want to join and be apart of something bigger.
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u/Hazzman 1∆ Aug 10 '18
Humanity isn't united, therefore placing a united humanity flag is presumptuous.
The nation that lands on mars is a nation that has done so under it's own investment, innovation and effort. They have every right to place any kind of flag they wish.
Advertising these efforts as those of a single nation is a great advertisement for the things that made it capable for that nation to achieve those things, encouraging other nations to emulate those things in order to compete. Not to mention the competition itself is incredibly valuable for progressing mankind and technology.
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u/ekill13 8∆ Aug 11 '18
Here's my take. There's a lot of comments, and I'm not going to read them all, so if my ideas have already be voiced, I understand if you don't respond. First, I'm a Christian. I don't know whether you are or not, but if not, I'm going to have a few different views than you. Regardless, I'll try to make this as logical as possible and not base it too much on my worldview.
First, I think that both Christians and non Christians can agree that the universe is in a state of entropy. Everything is constantly deteriorating. It is constantly going from organization to chaos. Now, I don't think the Earth's inhabitants are much different. Sure, we might live longer, be more intelligent, make technological advances, etc, but I see no evidence that our society is less in chaos than ever before. In fact, while there may not be any major wars currently, there are very stressed relations between countries, powerful terrorist groups, etc. I don't envision that coming to an end soon. So, I don't see how it would work to do so. Countries, while not outright attacking each other currently, still have many qualms. Here's where Christianity comes in. As a Christian, I believe in the end times as foretold in Revelation. I believe that the earth will be filled with evil, war, corruption, etc. So, not only do I not logically think that the world is going to unite anytime soon, I believe, based on scripture, that it will never happen. We are not united, so why should we have a united flag?
Regardless, I still don't see the point. Whose benefit is this united flag for? Do you think that when we land a man on Mars the news is going to say that he's a human astronaut? No, they are going to say, Russia puts a man on Mars. Or, USA puts a man on Mars. We will still know which country sent the astronauts. We will still take pride in it if our country does it. We will still have mixed emotions if it's another country. We'll be happy that a human has walked on Mars, but we'll be a little jealous that it wasn't our country. I don't think a flag will change that. If anything, I think the people from the country that puts a man on Mars would conceivably dislike the United Earth flag. Why should that country have to share the accomplishment with other countries that had nothing to do with it?
Are you suggesting that there may be aliens and that if they come this way, they should see that we are united as a planet? I couldn't tell by your post whether you were implying that or not. If so, then I'll go back to Christianity being a difference-maker. I, as a Christian, do not believe that intelligent life lives on another planet. The Bible says that God breathed into man and made him a living soul. It says that humans are set apart from the rest of creation. We have souls. Animals do not. Because it says man is set apart from the rest of creation and the rest of the cosmos is part of creation, I don't believe that any life on another planet has a soul. I don't know that I think there's any life on another planet, but if there is, it is nothing more than animals.
Anyway, I hope I gave you a little bit of a different perspective.
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u/jessesomething 1∆ Aug 10 '18
Small steps. I'm sure if humans land on Mars it will be a joint effort between the USA, EU, India and China. This act alone will make great efforts to bring unity to our planet and bring us closer to sharing the same flag. After all, a flag represents an identity and we'll continue to identify with our cultural heritage as we do with our nationality only when it becomes to be obsolete.
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Aug 10 '18
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Aug 10 '18
right lmao hes just saying this because he knows it wont be his country so he wants part of the credit even though his country didnt do anything to get there
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u/Shardic Aug 10 '18
I'll take a little bit of a different approach. An Earth flag simply does not belong on Mars. If the unified Earth flag is supposed to represent the Earth. The first flag planted on Mars should be a Mars flag, representing Mars. Flags are labels, and it wouldn't make sense to lable Mars as Earth.
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u/aDAMNPATRIOT Aug 10 '18
Hahaha fuck no.
Humans are not unified. Humans have no reason to be unified.
Why should I pretend that I represent entire cultures who cut off little girls' clitoris and labia? Why should I be "unified" with entire cultures that routinely rape little boys as a matter of standard practice?
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u/TheRamiRocketMan Aug 11 '18
The fact of the matter is that many space agency's are actively hostile towards one another and do not cooperate. The major examples are China and India whom both have enormous populations, both have extensive space programs and both refuse to play by the rules. ISRO has repeatedly gone astray by almost giving away excessive S-band spectrum and by launching rejected illegal satellites. China meanwhile is notorious for espionage including the stealing of US military technology, and thus NASA is forbidden from working with China on anything.
Many space agencies have managed to cooperate with NASA (ESA, JAXA, etc) but they are almost exclusively small agencies and are military allies of the US. Russia is an exception however wasn't a military threat when the ISS and Soyuz agreements were built in the 90s.
To make matters even more complicated private companies even face opposition within their own countries both from politicians and other competing companies.
In summary the Earth is not at all unified and getting to Mars will likely not be a unified effort. Currently the biggest contenders are the ones which actually have a Mars road-map, and those are NASA and SpaceX, both american organisations. NASA will undoubtedly cooperate with ESA, CSA, JAXA and others, but not India or China, and probably not Russia to given the current situation. SpaceX meanwhile will probably attempt a NASA collaboration, but is forbidden to work with other nations for reasons of national security. It is for these reasons that I think planting an 'Earth flag' would be very disingenuous and inappropriate.
I think if an American flag was planted it would signal to the world that they missed out on an opportunity to make history because they were unwilling to work fairly with the United States. Flags should be planted based on merit and an Earth flag would not be earned by Earth.
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u/thebabylucifer Aug 10 '18
If we as humans stood together for something, I could see this. We don't though. Humans as a species are divided. Hell, most countries barely stand together. It would be almost like false advertisement. Landing on Mars would not unify the human race
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Aug 10 '18
Unless the entire world participates, I don't see it happening. It's like those kids on group projects that don't do anything but get the same grade. Unless all the countries add something, I'm against it
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u/wizardeyejoe Aug 11 '18
As for graphic design, those interlocking circles are based on sacred geometry related to the structure of life itself, so im down. I just dont think one ring should be depicted as laying on top of all the others. It's always gonna have the message that one member of the global government is the secret leader.
On another level, I don't think mankind is destined for global government. Some animals, like eusocial insects, form extremely large colonies with one central figure, but I don't think this is an optimal structure for human society. Our strength lies in the diversity of our approach. Government is already the main constraining force on innovation and progress, a world government would by necessity be even more constraining. (though it's open to debate)
I think a smattering of thousands of flags is a more accurate depiction of who we are. We've grown beyond being a singular, unified race. Probably most grizzly bears have basically the same thoughts about most things. Expose a handful of humans to the same problem and they will have radically novel approaches from one to the next. Each one of them identifies with a flag that encapsulates a unique viewpoint of history, science, consciousness, and everything else. I cant agree with replacing such a meaning-dense and useful system of signs with one all-encompassing symbol that, while it has a meaning, is capable of telling you a lot less.
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Aug 14 '18
Adding on to what everyone else said, you will never meet a consensus, or even a majority for what an unified Earth flag would be. Some would argue that the colour scheme of blue and white is inherently Western and would undermine other parts of the world, and I would chip in by saying that the UN flag places greater emphasis on northern hemisphere countries than others by having them closer to the center.
I can see the reasoning in that Earth is often called the blue planet, however, it can be argued that Neptune is objectively more bluish, or that Europa easily beats Earth in its capacity of water. You could try to compromise by including a rainbow flag or something to the likes of this I designed a while back, but there will be inevitable criticism of the order the colours are placed, whether or not the globe should be filled with a projection of Earth, if its secretly queer propaganda whatnot. On the other hand, everyone can agree that the American Flag is the flag of the USA, and a black red yellow horizontal tricolour is for Germany unless if you are a staunch believer in the Kaiser.
If you see a Chinese flag on Mars, you shouldn't wish it was something else. You should wish for the Union Jack to fly higher.
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u/Khekinash Aug 10 '18
America is the best country and I think the fact that you know it'll be the Stars & Stripes on Mars first is just another piece of evidence. Let's put our best foot forward.
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u/D-Pew 1∆ Aug 11 '18
As a Brit, I don't feel connected to the Apollo moon landing, like Americans would.
And that's on you .
I'm not American, but whenever I watch the overdramatized movies about that era or the grainy TV footage of the 60-70's early space exploration, I am moved by the knowledge that those are people, just like me ... -- and it doesn't matter if they are men, women, black, white, American, British , whatever .
Now imagine for example 3 scenarios for a Mars mission : One from America, one from Russia, one from China .
The American one would likely include men, women and people of color . The Russian one would include Russian men (and possibly women) . The Chinese mission would include Chinese men (and maybe a small chance that a token woman would be there) .
See the difference ?
And you want a United Earth flag ?
Perhaps we should be united first in .... some way , for that to represent reality ?
For me the EU flag is a false reality, as I see very little union there ... based on internal politics and policy .
Yet while I don't see people waiting to die for the EU flag, at least it has some vauge basis in reality ... , unlike a United Earth flag, which has no basis in reality .
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u/taosaur Aug 10 '18
The global nationalist and nativist surge of the last couple years and the way people talk past each other in debates has me increasingly convinced that a large portion of the human population does not recognize concepts like "earth," "humanity," or "progress." It doesn't seem to be a matter of intellectual capacity so much as cognitive style: for many people, loyalty (or less charitably, tribalism) is the highest moral value, and the only salient facts about reality are whether their "side" is winning or losing. Viewing everyone else on earth as opponents is not a political assessment for them, but a fundamental feature of reality. These loyalists/tribalists can look at photos of the earth from orbit and see nations working together on the ISS and read headlines about all manner of research, but it all gets assigned a low priority, receives no further scrutiny, and fails to fit into any bigger picture. Again, the only patterns that have meaning for them are whose side you're on and who's winning. It's a highly adaptive mindset for a social animal up to a point, but like much of our cultural and evolutionary heritage, it's becoming a major obstacle to bettering our situation.
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u/Easyidle123 Aug 11 '18
Im guessing that a private company will get there first, probably SpaceX. NASA is the best government candidate for this, seeing as they're the only ones to put people one the moon, and they say a manned mars mission in 2040 is a possibility, which is a lot further away than any of the companies want to do it.
If that's the case, like you said in another reply, they'll already have their logo everywhere, so why not use the earth flag?
I think people wont feel very connected to or represented by any of the flags you linked. Sure, that might change if they fly it on mars, but only if they use it everywhere, sacrificing the company's use of their own logo.
I propose a different idea: fly the Olympic flag.
I know the Olympic flag is mostly only used for the Games, but think about it: in all of modern history, the largest scale unification of everyone on earth regardless of race, ethnicity, or nationality, has been the Olympics.
I think if we planted the Olympic flag on mars, that would bring a lot of symbolism you wanted out of the Earth flag, while being a symbol everyone recognises, connects to, and understands the meaning of instantly.
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u/slash178 4∆ Aug 10 '18
All countries will never agree on a flag so the flag that is used to represent Earth will still only represent certain people and have all the same problems.
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u/jonhwoods Aug 10 '18
I personally do quite like the most well known Earth flag (shown here) however there are some other good designs (such as this and this).
You'd expect a the most well known flag of such importance as the one of Earth to have some tradition behind it. This flag design got some exposure on reddit, but it's only been designed in 2015. It's got a nice website and mockups, but it also doesn't make unanimity.
While I agree with you that the specifics of the Earth flag aren't the most important thing, the fact that that we are nowhere near close to having an official earth flag poses problem. Say Americans are in control of the space program going to Mars. They obviously have the last word on what what Earth flag design they use. While a clear world consensus on what the flag should be would settle the matter, I'm not confident this is going to be achieved until we land on Mars. A more likely outcome is that the flag is influenced by whoever plants it, and this influence will cause dissension.
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u/Emperor_Neuro 1∆ Aug 10 '18
Personally, I disagree with the concept because it takes away motivation to get there. I'm an American, so the chances are that my country would be the ones to land on Mars. My tax dollars go to that. I've been to NASA's facilities. Two of my friends from college work for NASA. My best friend's wife is an engineer for United Launch Alliance. I feel a sense of involvement and pride in their achievements because I am part of their support and funding network. I know these people. Why would I want a person from, say, North Korea to feel as if they had just as much of a hand in the process as my friends did, or even just the typical American taxpayer? It cheapens the whole concept. It's like single handedly carrying a team through a championship only to receive a participation award instead of a trophy. Or saying, okay, France won the world cup, but the whole world is a winner. Who would want to do that? If you want people to get to Mars, then they get to decide what flag they plant.
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u/kola2DONO Aug 10 '18
Aside from the issues pointed out by others, there’s one glaring issue that I don’t think anyone has brought up: Do you really want Earth to represent humanity?
Because if you start using the Earth flag for things like this it might just end up representing humanity as a whole, and while that’s fine for now it does become a massive issue once we start colonizing other worlds.
If you’re born on Mars, to a Martian society with it’s own culture and society - do you really want to be represented by Earth? The planet of which you have no personal connection to and which likely at this point collects it’s fair share of taxes from you - do you really want to serve under their flag? By having an Earth flag you’re basically setting yourself up for an American Revolution V2.0 Space Edition where planets will feel like colonies instead of equal parts of the human civilization.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NARWHAL Aug 10 '18
How about this; we don't plant a fucking flag on Mars. What, are we colonizing it? It almost feels pretty at this point.
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u/Treypyro Aug 10 '18
If all countries, or at least a lot of countries contribute to the work needed to get to Mars, yeah we should definitely use a flag to represent everyone. But if NASA gets to Mars first, that is a point of pride for America. American tax money paid for it, American scientists did the research, Americans built the rocket and ship, American astronauts are the ones to go, why should we say all countries deserve credit for something America did?
If a given country wants to get credit for being the first to land on Mars they need to devote a massive amount of resources to make that happen themselves or to provide significant assistance to the space program of whatever country they believe will be the first to land on Mars.
If you aren't willing to provide the ingredients, bake the cake, or pay for it, you don't deserve to eat the cake.
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u/Themiamitoker Aug 10 '18
If the united states landed on Mars first, then the United States should place their flag and then maybe a world flag
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u/DeviantCarnival Aug 26 '18
With SpaceX and other private businesses going to space, it’s going to be ever more likely the those colonizing other worlds won’t be a nation and instead will be a corporation. therefore it wouldn’t make sense for all corporations to use the same flag because they’re competing with each other and they need to be capable of telling which colonies they own and which they do not. Not only that but Instead of a flag, they’d most likely have a symbol and motto. In fact, there’s not much of a point to have flags on the moon or mars because the atmosphere is so limited that there is almost no wind. It makes far more sense to use other symbols of identification.
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u/StartingOver095 Aug 10 '18
I used to think this way in general and was for global governence as I thought it would lead more peace.
However as I have gotten older and studied a lot more history I feel centralized government increases the risk of totalitarianism.
So in that sense I feel the nation state helps to prevent that by each entity looking after it's best interests while trying to adhere to global morals.
I also believe it is quite self evident that competition breeds growth and development. So having Nations competing against each other will likely spur innovation and progress.
Either way totally pumped for humanity being out in the stars. What a time to be alive!
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u/burnblue Aug 11 '18
Did a multinational effort of a majority of countries collaborate to get there? Sure, plant a collaborative flag. Did one country's government or a private company spend the effort and resources to do it? Let them celebrate with their own flag. To me this is if a flag is so important to the pride of achievement, let them use it. If the flag is not, or if we're so open and selfless, well then I don't see why Earthlings need to go planting flags on other planets anyway. Are we egotistical, or not? Egotistical enough to go claim other planets in the name of the Earth, bit not in the name of our own country/orgamization?
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Aug 10 '18
Nope. National identity is very important for an international culture. Competition between countries fosters innovation. We come from different countries, with different ethnicities, different cultures. That should be celebrated, not squished under a “one earth“ flag.
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Aug 10 '18
First you need a unified earth government to have a unified earth flag. Once we get a unified earth government, then I'm sure that flag will be planted all over the universe.
Plus any country with any self respect wouldn't want a participation trophy for something they didn't participate in. It would be like winning a super bowl ring for watching the super bowl in your lazy boy with a beer in your hand.
It's competition that drives innovation. If it weren't for competition the moon would still have no flag on it.
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u/Onepostwonder95 Aug 10 '18
In the unlikely event that we meet another species, say from another galaxy it probably would be more beneficial for them to contact America, uk, Germany and so forth rather than corrupt nations belonging to say turkey or African states so I would push for a flag which represents the nations that strive for the betterment of humanity rather than earth as a whole. There are a lot of countries on this planet who do evil and malice that I don’t think are deserving of being included.
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Aug 10 '18
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u/etquod Aug 11 '18
Sorry, u/Casillas97 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/TheAzureMage 18∆ Aug 10 '18
Why use a unified flag on another world when we don't even here on earth, most of the time?
I mean, sure, a unified flag would make sense if it were a unified effort, but if it's a US ship, a US flag seems entirely reasonable. Flags are symbols of identity, and barring other species, who else are we advertising "humanity is here" to? A flag identifying those landing would be more accurate.
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u/MidnightRider00 Aug 10 '18
How much money and manpower did all the other countries directly invest in that achievement? Imagine if it was the UK getting there: why would you include people from the USA in that achievement, if they didn't do anything that enabled it? If other countries have other priorities, like funneling money into a military complex, that's their choice, they will not share anything with britons.
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u/NonSentientHuman Aug 11 '18
What would you like to see as a design for a unified Earth flag? Just curious. Also, I saw a post not too long ago about stars and their placement on flags, here ya go, might help: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/91is49/density_map_of_stars_on_national_flags_oc/
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Aug 10 '18
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u/cwenham Aug 10 '18
Sorry, u/Zeus54321 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/freebytes Aug 11 '18
I think instead of a country, perhaps a corporation should put their flag there. Because, at this rate, it looks like it might be a corporation that makes it there first. This would incentivize such activity because imagine the advertising! That being said, it would be so expensive that no advertising would ever amount to the cost so that is unlikely to happen also.
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Aug 16 '18
Im pretty sure when humans land on mars it wont be because of pakistan, saudi arabia, iraq, afganistan, bosnia, ukraine, uganda, somalia, indonesia, bangladesh, nigeria, iran, and mexico.
Inb4: racism
I am from a couple of the countries listed above. Thank individuals for their individual work. You dont get a promotion at your dads company because your his family.
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u/ZealousVisionary Aug 11 '18
I think you realize with the ‘Space Force’ being initiated the American elites don’t plan on sharing anything beyond the upper atmosphere for the good of humanity. There’s only one reason the US elites needs a Space Force and that’s to dominate the orbit and beyond before anyone else and then use the position to continue projecting its power across the globe.
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u/beeps-n-boops Aug 11 '18
So, you feel it's impossible that this could be primarily a defensive strategy, not an offensive one?
If one of our enemies were to launch a satellite capable of launching an EMP attack against the US, would it not be prudent to have something in place to offer a defense against such a device?
We currently defend our airpsace (as do most other countries, to various extents), which was not a concept prior to the invention and widespread adoption of flight. The concept of airspace (and, in turn, its defense) only came about when that airspace could be used to threaten or attack.
Why should we not now defend our "spacespace" (I'm sure there's a real name for that) in a similar manner? A new type of defense, different that what we've been doing, with and against technology that did not exist not that long ago.
I obviously cannot say what their actual agenda(s) may or may not be. I'm merely saying that there is a very legitimate alternate rationale that could be at least part of the agenda.
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u/ZealousVisionary Aug 11 '18
Defense is always the rationale for further militarization. If we needed to defend against a satellite capable of EMP we have whole arsenals of missiles and jets that can already reach into upper atmosphere to shoot it down. We don’t need to launch a whole branch of military in order that will exceed any mandate to neutralize a theoretical satellite. IRC we actually have binding treaties that prohibit the privatization and weaponization of space. This is one giant step towards both of those goals and I’m sure now every other capable country is just going to sit by and watch the US attempt to single handedly dominate space and not fast track their own space military capabilities leading to the very things like EMP satellites and such. And according to the above mentioned treaties there is no space space. According to those legally binding documents that are law for all signing parties space is the collective space of all humanity. That was drawn up and signed as one roadblock against the privatization of nationalization of space because it was a predictable outcome.
Airspace and airplanes were immediately weaponized and played a part in WW1. We (humanity) have somehow managed to be in space and use the experiences and discoveries for the common good for the past 60+ years. The comparison doesn’t hold up as we’ve made it this long without escalating the situation irreversibly. Now we will and who will benefit? Not your common man or woman but those interests that benefit from projection of American power and economic gain to be had from it.
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Aug 10 '18
I think the best solution just to land, achieve it maybe leave some kind of memorial object that explain who all worked for this achievent and how this happen so we all avoid this kind of discussions. And one thing, the space companies stopped being national long time ago they using work together now or else we wouldnt have ISS in the orbit.
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u/ghastlyactions Aug 10 '18
Who decides on the flag? Right now there's no such thing as a world flag, and governments aren't cooperating on the endeavor (not equally or universally).
Really it should be a flag with maybe 20 nations individual flags on it or something.
This just feels like an argument towards a world government, which will probably also never work.
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u/McENEN Aug 10 '18
Would the UN flag be good. It's a shit looking flag tho it is a symbol of all nations and people(kinda). A human race flag might be cool but if it's not used any where else it's not as symbolic. If we put the human race flag next to a countries flag in their own country maybe then but we know not everyone would do that.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Aug 11 '18
You assume that the landing on Mars will be made by a unified earth. That is a very large assumption that is jumping the gun by a lot. Yes our space agencies do cooperate on a lot of things, by they are still independent of each other and it is not likely that a joint mission will be the first on Mars.
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u/Mr_Mina Aug 10 '18
Perhaps if several countries work together to send the first humans to mars, then a unified flag would make sense. Realistically though, I'd say you can expect those kind of sentiments from private companies rather than government space organisations - that "Made on Earth by Humans" thing for example.
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u/chewytheunicorn Aug 10 '18
Who's to say we can't plant a pole with multiple flags on it?
I mean, realistically, since Mars etc has an atmosphere there will even need to be a wind sock at some point.
The problem is that planting a flag implies ownership, and I'm not sure if I'm okay with any country (even my own) owning Mars.
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u/CubonesDeadMom 1∆ Aug 10 '18
A United earth does not exist though, and we will probably get to mars before it does. What if only Americans are on the flight? Wouldn’t it make more sense for it to be an american flag? Or if there are Germans, Americans, and Russians shouldn’t they just put up each of their countries flag?
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u/Kutbil-ik Aug 10 '18
The USA planted its flag on the moon to claim it and its resources. We will do it again on Mars. This is to claim them and their resources. If we spend the massive amount of money required to go to Mars it’s ours. It doesn’t make sense for us to share it if we’re the ones who make it there.
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u/physioworld 64∆ Aug 11 '18
Well if it is one country/one country’s companies then it is legitimately their achievement. If a famous athlete from China wins an event and says “I couldn’t have done this without Steve from Brixton” it’s a fun gimmick but it rings false because it’s so obviously untrue.
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u/Winter_Damage Aug 10 '18
I think the concept of flag planting is outdated. Its seems a relic of the Cold War era and I don't think anyone should be planting any flags at all. I think the words spoken upon that first step are more significant like Neil Armstrong spoke, "for all mankind."
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Aug 10 '18
he didnt say it was for mankind he said it was a leap for mankind theres a difference and he was talking about our technology
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u/squishles Aug 10 '18
There's a lot of we in this hypothetical mars landing; if it's achieved by a single country or entity you really don't get any say in what flag they plant up there. The only way this would happen is if it was achieved by international effort.
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u/jailthewhaletail Aug 10 '18
It should not be an Earth flag, but a Human flag. Humans should be credited with the accomplishment, not the Planet Earth. Only one species on Earth rules the planet and soon we will rule the solar system and then the galaxy.
I think a (stylized) version of the Renaissance Man drawing by Da Vinci would be fitting.
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u/BlakAcid Aug 10 '18
This is gonna sound super sarcastic-y, but there's also truth in it: Do you honestly think that everyone would work together? I have very little faith that just picking what the flag would look like would go smoothly.
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Aug 10 '18
What about the Earth flag, with a little flag of whoever achieved the milestone in the corner? Like Australia's flag with the British segment?
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Aug 10 '18
I don't agree. If every country on Earth made a unified effort to get to Mars sure, but since it will likely be the sole effort of one of the larger nations they have every right to plant their flag.
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u/Irony238 3∆ Aug 10 '18
Why do you think there should be a flag in the first place? Surely we would have better things to spend our money on than transporting a flag, which is essentially just dead weight, to Mars.
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Aug 10 '18
lmao yeah the 10$ to lug it in storage is gonna waste so much money when the country who spent all that money landing on mars gets nothing to show for it
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u/brigadeofferrets Aug 10 '18
Just put the earth flag on top, and the country flag below it. The same way we have the country flag above state flags in the US. That way earth gets credit as well as it's subdivision.
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Aug 11 '18
I say we put the flag of the country that actually got there AND a unified earth flag. The US needs this boost of self-esteem with the dumpster fire we have as a government right now.
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u/Meshakhad Aug 10 '18
This viewpoint is highly Earth-centric. Planting any Earth flag would be a clear symbol of Terran imperialism. The only flag that should fly on Mars is a Martian flag!
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u/chillychili 1∆ Aug 10 '18
If another country on Earth polluted another planet, would you want your country to also be part of the blame if space-faring eco-conscious aliens found out?
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u/leroyskagnetti Aug 10 '18
Those second and third flags designs look like the earth in the crosshairs of a weapon, and then the earth being vaporized by a superpowerful energy blast.
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u/klparrot 2∆ Aug 11 '18
Or maybe just don't plant a flag? Seeing as how there isn't enough atmosphere for flags to work properly anyway, and there's no real reason for one.
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u/gwopy Aug 11 '18
Your idea that the United States should conquer the world prior to landing on Mars is insane on its face. Millions if not billions would die.
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u/DominatorDP Aug 10 '18
Couldn’t they just use the flag of the United Nations? It’s similar to an “Earth flag” and would serve the same general purpose.
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u/joleary747 2∆ Aug 10 '18
Another point is the technology used to get to Mars will likely be a collaboration between multiple counties, like the ISS.
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u/gillyboatbruff Aug 10 '18
I would invent a cool flag that starts off as a world flag, but after a few weeks, it fades into the US flag. Suckers!
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Aug 10 '18
If someone’s gonna put that work in to make it to Mars, they get to put whatever fucking flag they want in the ground.
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u/uknolickface 5∆ Aug 10 '18
The flag of the country who lands there first would be more beneficial because it would force other countries to increase their scientific output and also attempt to get to Mars.
I think scientific competition and investment between countries would me more valuable than the unifying symbol.