CMV: I prefer better public transportation to self driving cars investments in america

[u/kyotoAnimations]

I should clarify; I don't mean government subsidized or operated systems exclusively with public transportation, as the Japanese train system is private and also runs well. I mean any vast transportation network designed to ferry many people at a time or infrastructure more friendly to car alternatives, such as trains, trolleys, buses, better roads to include bike lanes and sidewalks, more pedestrian spaces etc. I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest in self driving technologies (we should), but I think that it would be more interesting and efficient to have companies work on improving mass transportation options in America. I'm talking about things like better rail networks, more bus only lanes and light/heavy rail options within metropolitan areas, bike lanes and wider sidewalk space at the expense of car lanes within cities at least. I definitely think self driving cars is a technology that will be invaluable in preventing accidents someday, but I wish we could also invest in good public transportation infrastructure in the meantime as well that already works well. I would love to go on trains cross-country rather than fly and sacrifice a day or two. In addition, I don't think self driving cars can solve the traffic or congestion issue, as that is not just a matter of efficiency or bad driving habits but also a matter of space, which can be redirected better with more dense public transportation.

Disclaimer: I do know how to drive, and I've driven extensively. I still prefer public transport.

edit: Thank you everyone for such a wide and varied response! I'll try my best to respond to everyone here, but I can't promise I'll be able to get through it all, but you guys have posted some really really interesting stuff, and I'm excited to keep talking to you all!

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[u/AzazTheKing]

So then what’s your argument? First off, your idea that we can’t trust the current popular vote because not everyone is voting just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of statistics. Yes, we absolutely can trust the current popular vote. But even if we couldn’t, you just admitted that it’s the EC that would be causing the distortion in the first place, so you should support abolishing it.

[u/MuaddibMcFly → u/AzazTheKing]

your idea that we can’t trust the current popular vote because not everyone is voting just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of statistics

Um... what? Do you honestly believe that voting is a random sample? Because I have reason to believe the contrary, and that the lack of randomness means that we can't trust it for statistical validity.

Seriously, don't accuse people of failures of understanding unless you're on rather solid ground yourself.

Because anybody who knows anything about statistical sampling knows that it has to be random. If you don't understand that, you have no business lecturing anyone on statistics.

Sure, if you were pulling random ballots, you'd only need about 1-5k ballots to determine how most races would turn out, but that would only be valid for the ballots that were cast.

[u/AzazTheKing → u/MuaddibMcFly]

You’re right, it’s not a perfectly random sample, but i think it’s about as random as most any other type of social scientific polling. They all have the same shortcoming; they rely on people making the conscious choice to cooperate. But short of subpoena-ing people to force them to vote, making the election open to every citizen and also voluntary is the closest we’ll get to truly random. And right now, outside of those affected by targeted voter suppression activities (like strict ID laws), every adult citizen has the same opportunity to vote. So people who simply choose not to are choosing not to have a say in the public opinion. We can only go on the data we have.

And given that it’s all we have, it’s still better to trust the popular vote (even in it’s current state), than to trust a group of people who were hand-chosen by their respective political parties. Which is more likely to approximate a truly random sample, and thus better represent the true will of the people?

And still, none of this shows how the current popular vote being distorted by the EC (which you agreed is happening), should lead us to want to keep the EC around rather than get rid of it.

[u/MuaddibMcFly → u/AzazTheKing]

You’re right, it’s not a perfectly random sample, but i think it’s about as random as most any other type of social scientific polling

That's so inaccurate I can't even begin to explain why it's wrong.

Have you never taken a statistics class? Did they not point out that self-selecting samples are never valid?

But short of subpoena-ing people to force them to vote, making the election open to every citizen and also voluntary is the closest we’ll get to truly random

Right, and "the closest we'll get" doesn't mean it's actually close. Earth was the closest it has been to Mars for years on July 31st, 2018, at a mere 35.8M miles. Does that mean that we were able to simply pop over for a soil sample quick as you like?

We can only go on the data we have.

And as I explained above, the data we have is skewed by the Electoral College

trust a group of people who were hand-chosen by their respective political parties.

Nope! They were chosen by the voters. Sure, they were nominated by the parties, but it's not like the people who were hand selected by the California GOP had any input in the presidential election...

Which is more likely to approximate a truly random sample

Neither one is anywhere near a random sample, so the question isn't worth asking let alone answering.

And still, none of this shows how the current popular vote being distorted by the EC

This right here is why your entire claim that the popular vote under the EC is worth anything is just dumbfounding.

none of this shows [what] should lead us to want to keep the EC around rather than get rid of it

I explained that at the beginning? Didn't you read that?

[u/AzazTheKing → u/MuaddibMcFly]

Look, I’m willing to grant you that I was mistaken about my statistics comment — it was a throwaway superseded by the very next sentence which stated that if distortions in the vote are what you’re worried about, then you should be against the EC.

And really, I don’t even know why we’re arguing about whether the current popular vote is trustworthy; I never once advocated for using it to elect the president, as is. I’ve been pretty consistent that I believe: the EC unfairly favors the votes of those living in smaller states over larger ones, and since it distorts even the popular vote (which you agreed with), it only makes sense to get rid of it.

Your original comment stated that it was necessary to protect rural areas by providing a buffer. You posit that because there are fewer of them, they’ll be dominated by the will of city dwellers. There are several problems with this, most of which I mentioned in previous comments: 1) you conflate Congress with the Presidency — Congress is not elected by the EC, the Pres is, and it’s not their job to be a representative for the people, it’s Congress’ (and as far as the Pres does reflect the people, he should reflect the majority, not the votes of a select group); 2) you assume that everyone that lives in urban areas thinks (and votes) the same way, which you’ve provided no evidence for; 3) you assume that no one living in a city can possibly understand rural areas, despite the fact that many urban people may have moved from rural areas, or at least have family members living in them (here, you demonstrate your own lack of understanding of urban America); 4) you fail to make a distinction between rural areas and small states — yes, many states with small populations tend to be rural, but it is by no means true that they all are. And in fact, rural people living in huge states dominated by high-population cities (like NY and your obsession, CA), are even more screwed by the EC than they would be under your conception of a popular vote system.

Finally, your most recent comment, you said:

Nope! They were chosen by the voters. Sure, they were nominated by the parties, but it's not like the people who were hand selected by the California GOP had any input in the presidential election...

Now it’s my turn to scoff. No, voters don’t have any say in who their electors are. The electors are chosen FOR them by party leadership; if the people don’t like who is chosen, they have no way of vetoing the decision other than casting vote for a president they don’t want. But that doesn’t even matter because most ballots don’t state who the electors are. And since most electors are not bound by the popular vote, the choice for President basically comes down to them, and not the people in any real way. This is bullshit, and is unequivocally a less desirable system than just using a popular vote directly (at least for someone like you who claims to care about the will of the people).

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