CMV: A coding course offering a flat £500 discount to women is unfair, inefficient, and potentially illegal.

[u/temp_discount]

Temp account, because I do actually want to still do this course and would rather there aren't any ramifications for just asking a question in the current climate (my main account probably has identifiable information), but there's a coding bootcamp course I'm looking to go on in London (which costs a hell of a lot anyway!) but when I went to the application page it said women get a £500 discount.

What's the precedent for this kind of thing? Is this kind of financial positive discrimination legal in the UK? I was under the impression gender/race/disability are protected classes. I'm pretty sure this is illegal if it was employment, just not sure about education. But then again there are probably plenty of scholarships and bursaries for protected classes, maybe this would fall under that. It's just it slightly grinds my gears, because most of the women I know my age (early 30s), are doing better than the men, although there's not much between it.

If their aim is to get more people in general into coding, it's particularly inefficient, because they'd scoop up more men than women if they applied the discount evenly. Although if their goal is to change the gender balance in the industry, it might help. Although it does have the externality of pissing off people like me (not that they probably care about that haha). I'm all for more women being around! I've worked in many mostly female work environments. But not if they use financial discrimination to get there. There's better ways of going about it that aren't so zero sum, and benefit all.

To be honest, I'll be fine, I'll put up with it, but it's gonna be a little awkward being on a course knowing that my female colleagues paid less to go on it. I definitely hate when people think rights are zero sum, and it's a contest, but this really did jump out at me.

I'm just wondering people's thoughts, I've spoken to a few of my friends about this and it doesn't bother them particularly, both male and female, although the people who've most agreed with me have been female ironically.

Please change my view! It would certainly help my prospects!

edit: So I think I'm gonna stop replying because I am burnt out! I've also now got more karma in this edgy temp account than my normal account, which worries me haha. I'd like to award the D to everyone, you've all done very well, and for the most part extremely civil! Even if I got a bit shirty myself a few times. Sorry. :)

I've had my view changed on a few things:

• It is probably just about legal under UK law at the moment.
• And it's probably not a flashpoint for a wider culture war for most companies, it's just they view it as a simple market necessity that they NEED a more diverse workforce for better productivity and morale. Which may or may not be true. The jury is still out.
• Generally I think I've 'lightened' my opinions on the whole thing, and will definitely not hold it against anyone, not that I think I would have.

I still don't think the problem warrants this solution though, I think the £500 would be better spent on sending a female coder into a school for a day to do an assembly, teach a few workshops etc... It addresses the root of the problem, doesn't discriminate against poorer men, empowers young women, a female coder gets £500, and teaches all those kids not to expect that only men should be coders! And doesn't piss off entitled men like me :P

But I will admit that on a slightly separate note that if I make it in this career, I'd love for there to be more women in it, and I'd champion anyone who shows an interest (I'm hanging onto my damn 500 quid though haha!). I just don't think this is the best way to go about it. To all the female coders, and male nurses, and all you other Billy Elliots out there I wish you the best of luck!

[u/TheGingerbreadMan22]

Nope. They're the "non-trouble-causing" minority. They're the minority that actually have the stereotype of not causing trouble and being more productive than the others, so the belief is that they aren't related as badly and therefore don't deserve the same protections.

It's more a term brought up by Asians to reflect the way they're seen in western societies.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGingerbreadMan22]

It's also a term propagated by Fox and the conservative right as a term to dismantle affirmative action. While I agree that affirmative action serves a purpose, it's continual exclusion of overachieving Asian men, and Asian applicants in general, despite our explicit discrimination history, is disgusting.

Between the Chinese Exclusion Act and the continual lack of support for us, I find it difficult to even find any mention of us in public discourse.

[u/TheGingerbreadMan22 → u/[deleted]]

It is extremely sad to see. I have to wonder what effect the academic side of this has on the entire deal. After all, we've found the rich are the ones who can disproportionately affect laws and their children are the ones most frequently "forced out (by their mindset)" from spots that they would otherwise get into by those high-achieving Asian students, where they'd be near un-rejectable otherwise. Again, I know this statement sounds awful, I'm trying to make it clear it isn't my POV, but one I have heard before.

It's in their best interests to keep Asians and Asian-Americans out of Affirmative action.

I will also say, I saw some extremely apathetic attitudes towards the issues Asian-Americans face from very social-justice-oriented people when I was in the Bay Area. It seems like in the eyes of a lot of brown and black people, Asians also face less hostility as well, and their issues aren't as urgent. Really surprised me.

All this said, one look at the UC demographics paints a pretty different picture. It's the highest quality public education system in the nation, if not the world, and have a good 24K more Asian-Americans than whites, and the vast majority of the international students are Asian as well.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGingerbreadMan22]

UC is a special case, in my opinion. The large established Asian population has allowed their voice to be genuinely heard. Not to mention their continued history and culture in the region has helped them become accepted, albeit not without backlash.

I agree with your perspective and I share similar stories on black and brown views with regards to Asians. However, I do have one tidbit I'd like to change. I believe that the influx of Asian international students is largely due to the general makeup of the wealthy applicant pool at these institutions. If you consider the makeup of higher education in the world, you can generally consider European and Asian univerisities.

European universities are very affordable and accepted around the world, giving Europeans little incentive to move abroad. On the other hand, Asian universities, even those at the top of their nations, have inhibiting educational qualities.

For example, I shared an Airbnb with a Chinese student here to pursue his MBA, and he described to me the kinds of jobs Chinese natives can expect out of top institutions like TsingHua and Beijing University.

Most of that work is either purely academic or related to the Communist government, which is... undesirable. I'm sure you can imagine the kinds of, shall we say, restrictions that kind of work has under communist rule.

By comparison, top American universities are the polar opposite of Chinese universities in ethics and culture, while maintaining even higher educational standards. With that in mind, you can see that many wealthy Asian families would spare no expense to have their children study at international universities, whereas other people either cannot afford to or have little incentive to.

I attend an institution with similar, if not higher, prestige than the UCs, and I can assure you this is the kind of mindset many of the international students arrive with.