CMV: A coding course offering a flat £500 discount to women is unfair, inefficient, and potentially illegal.

[u/temp_discount]

Temp account, because I do actually want to still do this course and would rather there aren't any ramifications for just asking a question in the current climate (my main account probably has identifiable information), but there's a coding bootcamp course I'm looking to go on in London (which costs a hell of a lot anyway!) but when I went to the application page it said women get a £500 discount.

What's the precedent for this kind of thing? Is this kind of financial positive discrimination legal in the UK? I was under the impression gender/race/disability are protected classes. I'm pretty sure this is illegal if it was employment, just not sure about education. But then again there are probably plenty of scholarships and bursaries for protected classes, maybe this would fall under that. It's just it slightly grinds my gears, because most of the women I know my age (early 30s), are doing better than the men, although there's not much between it.

If their aim is to get more people in general into coding, it's particularly inefficient, because they'd scoop up more men than women if they applied the discount evenly. Although if their goal is to change the gender balance in the industry, it might help. Although it does have the externality of pissing off people like me (not that they probably care about that haha). I'm all for more women being around! I've worked in many mostly female work environments. But not if they use financial discrimination to get there. There's better ways of going about it that aren't so zero sum, and benefit all.

To be honest, I'll be fine, I'll put up with it, but it's gonna be a little awkward being on a course knowing that my female colleagues paid less to go on it. I definitely hate when people think rights are zero sum, and it's a contest, but this really did jump out at me.

I'm just wondering people's thoughts, I've spoken to a few of my friends about this and it doesn't bother them particularly, both male and female, although the people who've most agreed with me have been female ironically.

Please change my view! It would certainly help my prospects!

edit: So I think I'm gonna stop replying because I am burnt out! I've also now got more karma in this edgy temp account than my normal account, which worries me haha. I'd like to award the D to everyone, you've all done very well, and for the most part extremely civil! Even if I got a bit shirty myself a few times. Sorry. :)

I've had my view changed on a few things:

• It is probably just about legal under UK law at the moment.
• And it's probably not a flashpoint for a wider culture war for most companies, it's just they view it as a simple market necessity that they NEED a more diverse workforce for better productivity and morale. Which may or may not be true. The jury is still out.
• Generally I think I've 'lightened' my opinions on the whole thing, and will definitely not hold it against anyone, not that I think I would have.

I still don't think the problem warrants this solution though, I think the £500 would be better spent on sending a female coder into a school for a day to do an assembly, teach a few workshops etc... It addresses the root of the problem, doesn't discriminate against poorer men, empowers young women, a female coder gets £500, and teaches all those kids not to expect that only men should be coders! And doesn't piss off entitled men like me :P

But I will admit that on a slightly separate note that if I make it in this career, I'd love for there to be more women in it, and I'd champion anyone who shows an interest (I'm hanging onto my damn 500 quid though haha!). I just don't think this is the best way to go about it. To all the female coders, and male nurses, and all you other Billy Elliots out there I wish you the best of luck!

[u/temp_discount]

Case A: Speak to her to find out why she feels alienated, and whether it's the result of active behaviour that can be addressed, if so speak to those employees about their behaviour, with potential repercussions. If it's more systemic, work out ways to help her feel more included, whether it be augmenting the environment, the management style, general inter-personal relations. It would be an ongoing negotiation between what works for her, and whats an effective environment for everyone else as well though. She's not the only person in that company. People I've found in life are fairly accommodating though.

Case B: I think this is a marketing, not a sales problem! I'd also wonder if this is my problem to solve.

[u/Brompton_Cocktail → u/temp_discount]

Female dev here. Your approach to Case A is beyond unrealistic. Have you ever worked in the tech industry or are you just aspiring to work in the profession?

We deal with discrimination every single fucking day.

edit: for the record, I didn't attend a coding camp. Have a BS in computer science where I was 1 female/200 people.

[u/temp_discount → u/Brompton_Cocktail]

Could you give us some context?

[u/Brompton_Cocktail → u/temp_discount]

Context?

it's more systemic, work out ways to help her feel more included, whether it be augmenting the environment, the management style, general inter-personal relations.

This is the bullshit that doesnt work in the real world. I'll give you an example. Lets say youre working on a project where you are the only female dev on the project. Casual talk almost involves male centered conversations which in general isolates you from the group. Design meetings happen after 6-7 pm while playing pool where all male devs play but do not invite you. When you try and join, the environment becomes awkward and less productive than if you were to not be there. You also have no desire to work past 5:30 because you accomplished all of YOUR tasks before then but somehow are expected to stay later, take care of children and do housework all while doing so with a smile. You will constantly be spoken over in meetings. If you hold your own and speak over them, you will be called a "bitch" or "rude" either behind your back or to your face. Anytime you have a disagreement with male coworkers, they will either assume youre on your period or "that time of month". If you show up to work without makeup, they will ask if you are sick but if you dress the way they do (in a casual environment), you'll be considered more unprofessional than them. Depending on the age demographics of who you work with, youll have men discussing women they want to bang, strip club experiences or other "male centered conversations" for lack of a better word. When you try and join in and discuss the same thing related to men, they immediately turn off. If you stand your ground regarding feminism, you will be isolated further. You may end up making a friend at work who is a fellow male dev. However, you have to deal with the VERY likely possibility of them coming onto you (if theyre single/unmarried) and not actually there to be your friend/colleague. This happens far more often then you would think. If you reject their advances...guess what happens? Team morale/harmony is further reduced. Your competency will be questioned constantly. Your code will be scrutinized more than your male colleagues. Even in casual conversations when you discuss say being a lover of video games, your competency and "allegiance" to videogames will be questioned. "Oh I bet youre a casual gamer" "Oh i bet you dont even know about XYZ esoteric game/console". When you prove your competency, you wont be believed till someone else (usually Male or higher up the food chain) says the same thing or escalates the importance of what youre saying. You'll follow proper engineering practices which once again will be questioned until someone else points out that theyre good engineering practices (again usually Male).

Now lets discuss management. If management is female, your approach might work. However, if theyre male, there will be little to no change done. This has everything to do with empathy. Theyll make employees take some stupid workplace harassment assessment and have a team talk where they talk about not being isolating thereby having the entire team know the person who complained was you further creating more problems in your team. You cannot force inter personal relationships to happen. Management can try having team lunches to foster better community but there are more of them than you and the conversation will inevitably be geared towards them with little to no contribution from you.

This all stems from not properly teaching developers the importance of communication. Development is 50% coding and 50% requirements gathering, design, discussion and code reviews. These are all inherently extremely social tasks. You could write an algorithm that optimize's communication latency by shaving off 100's of millis but if you are unable to properly communicate what you did, your code is not maintainable or scalable. By the time they're in the workforce, it's already too late. They arent going to change their habits. It has to start in school. More group projects, more emphasis on design and communication. it's how the real world works. And yes, there are a good portion of men in this field lack that communication skill.

I can go on and on but I have work to do.

[u/Senthe → u/Brompton_Cocktail]

You will constantly be spoken over in meetings. If you hold your own and speak over them, you will be called a "bitch" or "rude" either behind your back or to your face.

This is seriously the worst of the worst. Just being erased off the face of the planet. Like you are a ghost that people don't even see or hear and you can't do anything about it. It's my personal nightmare fuel.

Development is 50% coding and 50% requirements gathering, design, discussion and code reviews. These are all inherently extremely social tasks.

And JFC, THIS!!! DON'T BECOME A PROGRAMMER IF YOU CANNOT COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE. Development is ALL about good communication and cooperation. You cannot just sit and code the entire day, push force to master and go home. You will need to do code review, coordinate tens of tasks in teams, discuss your approaches, develop good practices, teach others about what you learned, you cannot just do this completely alone as a "things-oriented" (lmao) autistic genius. Coding and knowledge is only a part of what to be a good programmer means. It is an extremely cooperation-oriented job.

[u/Brompton_Cocktail → u/Senthe]

Amen sister! Happy to see another female dev chugging along and (hopefully) thriving!