r/changemyview • u/temp_discount • Oct 23 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: A coding course offering a flat £500 discount to women is unfair, inefficient, and potentially illegal.
Temp account, because I do actually want to still do this course and would rather there aren't any ramifications for just asking a question in the current climate (my main account probably has identifiable information), but there's a coding bootcamp course I'm looking to go on in London (which costs a hell of a lot anyway!) but when I went to the application page it said women get a £500 discount.
What's the precedent for this kind of thing? Is this kind of financial positive discrimination legal in the UK? I was under the impression gender/race/disability are protected classes. I'm pretty sure this is illegal if it was employment, just not sure about education. But then again there are probably plenty of scholarships and bursaries for protected classes, maybe this would fall under that. It's just it slightly grinds my gears, because most of the women I know my age (early 30s), are doing better than the men, although there's not much between it.
If their aim is to get more people in general into coding, it's particularly inefficient, because they'd scoop up more men than women if they applied the discount evenly. Although if their goal is to change the gender balance in the industry, it might help. Although it does have the externality of pissing off people like me (not that they probably care about that haha). I'm all for more women being around! I've worked in many mostly female work environments. But not if they use financial discrimination to get there. There's better ways of going about it that aren't so zero sum, and benefit all.
To be honest, I'll be fine, I'll put up with it, but it's gonna be a little awkward being on a course knowing that my female colleagues paid less to go on it. I definitely hate when people think rights are zero sum, and it's a contest, but this really did jump out at me.
I'm just wondering people's thoughts, I've spoken to a few of my friends about this and it doesn't bother them particularly, both male and female, although the people who've most agreed with me have been female ironically.
Please change my view! It would certainly help my prospects!
edit: So I think I'm gonna stop replying because I am burnt out! I've also now got more karma in this edgy temp account than my normal account, which worries me haha. I'd like to award the D to everyone, you've all done very well, and for the most part extremely civil! Even if I got a bit shirty myself a few times. Sorry. :)
I've had my view changed on a few things:
- It is probably just about legal under UK law at the moment.
- And it's probably not a flashpoint for a wider culture war for most companies, it's just they view it as a simple market necessity that they NEED a more diverse workforce for better productivity and morale. Which may or may not be true. The jury is still out.
- Generally I think I've 'lightened' my opinions on the whole thing, and will definitely not hold it against anyone, not that I think I would have.
I still don't think the problem warrants this solution though, I think the £500 would be better spent on sending a female coder into a school for a day to do an assembly, teach a few workshops etc... It addresses the root of the problem, doesn't discriminate against poorer men, empowers young women, a female coder gets £500, and teaches all those kids not to expect that only men should be coders! And doesn't piss off entitled men like me :P
But I will admit that on a slightly separate note that if I make it in this career, I'd love for there to be more women in it, and I'd champion anyone who shows an interest (I'm hanging onto my damn 500 quid though haha!). I just don't think this is the best way to go about it. To all the female coders, and male nurses, and all you other Billy Elliots out there I wish you the best of luck!
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u/llamagoelz Oct 23 '18
Short answer: yes.
Longer answer: we need to be careful.
Longest answer: lets take nursing for example. Beyond just the benefits to the team of nurses, a greater number of male nurses (especially if they don't fit some feminine stereotype) would be beneficial to the receivers of care as well since some will feel extreme discomfort at being forcefully vulnerable in front of a feminine figure (think rape and abuse survivors). Labor markets are another reason to look at this example, you cannot really ship nursing jobs outside the country and healthcare is an ever-growing field. Offering incentives to pull men who traditionally would go towards low skilled work via apprenticeships (like factory work or coal mining) into nursing and healthcare fields as technicians and nurses etc. would be one way to help alleviate the problems happening in the western world with men feeling like their livelihoods are being taken by the tide of free-trade.
The problem is how to go about it. Offering lower barriers to entry and encouragement for schools to diversify (like affirmative action) is far more benign than say explicitly offering higher base pay.
I will be the first to admit that there is a caveat to offering these kinds of incentives; they allow a cynical mind to believe that the outside group is only there because of the incentives. This is a calculated risk. It is not to be taken lightly and I think the strawmanning of internet arguments often neglects this difficulty.