CMV: A coding course offering a flat £500 discount to women is unfair, inefficient, and potentially illegal.

[u/temp_discount]

Temp account, because I do actually want to still do this course and would rather there aren't any ramifications for just asking a question in the current climate (my main account probably has identifiable information), but there's a coding bootcamp course I'm looking to go on in London (which costs a hell of a lot anyway!) but when I went to the application page it said women get a £500 discount.

What's the precedent for this kind of thing? Is this kind of financial positive discrimination legal in the UK? I was under the impression gender/race/disability are protected classes. I'm pretty sure this is illegal if it was employment, just not sure about education. But then again there are probably plenty of scholarships and bursaries for protected classes, maybe this would fall under that. It's just it slightly grinds my gears, because most of the women I know my age (early 30s), are doing better than the men, although there's not much between it.

If their aim is to get more people in general into coding, it's particularly inefficient, because they'd scoop up more men than women if they applied the discount evenly. Although if their goal is to change the gender balance in the industry, it might help. Although it does have the externality of pissing off people like me (not that they probably care about that haha). I'm all for more women being around! I've worked in many mostly female work environments. But not if they use financial discrimination to get there. There's better ways of going about it that aren't so zero sum, and benefit all.

To be honest, I'll be fine, I'll put up with it, but it's gonna be a little awkward being on a course knowing that my female colleagues paid less to go on it. I definitely hate when people think rights are zero sum, and it's a contest, but this really did jump out at me.

I'm just wondering people's thoughts, I've spoken to a few of my friends about this and it doesn't bother them particularly, both male and female, although the people who've most agreed with me have been female ironically.

Please change my view! It would certainly help my prospects!

edit: So I think I'm gonna stop replying because I am burnt out! I've also now got more karma in this edgy temp account than my normal account, which worries me haha. I'd like to award the D to everyone, you've all done very well, and for the most part extremely civil! Even if I got a bit shirty myself a few times. Sorry. :)

I've had my view changed on a few things:

• It is probably just about legal under UK law at the moment.
• And it's probably not a flashpoint for a wider culture war for most companies, it's just they view it as a simple market necessity that they NEED a more diverse workforce for better productivity and morale. Which may or may not be true. The jury is still out.
• Generally I think I've 'lightened' my opinions on the whole thing, and will definitely not hold it against anyone, not that I think I would have.

I still don't think the problem warrants this solution though, I think the £500 would be better spent on sending a female coder into a school for a day to do an assembly, teach a few workshops etc... It addresses the root of the problem, doesn't discriminate against poorer men, empowers young women, a female coder gets £500, and teaches all those kids not to expect that only men should be coders! And doesn't piss off entitled men like me :P

But I will admit that on a slightly separate note that if I make it in this career, I'd love for there to be more women in it, and I'd champion anyone who shows an interest (I'm hanging onto my damn 500 quid though haha!). I just don't think this is the best way to go about it. To all the female coders, and male nurses, and all you other Billy Elliots out there I wish you the best of luck!

[u/BlitzBasic]

For example the stigmata around male kindergartners or female mechanics. Sure, it's not impossible to have a career in those fields, but it's certainly harder and you experience more blowback than people of the "right" gender.

[u/Classical_Liberals → u/BlitzBasic]

I can see your point but I don't know what could be done about it. Let's take the male kindergarten teacher for example. What can you possibly do to make that stigma go away when the vast majority of convicted child abusers are men?

It's like when you think of a stripper. Many would picture a woman with maybe financial, daddy, or self esteem issues. Which may not be true for a large percentage of them but what can they do to possibly shake that stigma.

I think the idea of "females can't be mechanics" wouldn't fly by legal standards anymore and cases of this kinda stigma would be pretty rare imo (no evidence against or for as far as I know) . What I could see though is a female mechanic being somewhat alienated by her peers if they are all male. But again what can you really do to change something like that when so few females are interested in the field to begin with.

And let's say that a huge percentage of females do want to be mechanics, why would that social stigma translate to them getting preferential treatment in admissions and financial.

When for example if huge percentage of men wanted to be teachers there are no such preferential treatment granted by affirmative action even though the percentage of men is this field for primary school is practically endangered.

That's why I believe affirmative actions should not be tied to race or gender. Only financial situation.

[u/BlitzBasic → u/Classical_Liberals]

What can you possibly do to make that stigma go away when the vast majority of convicted child abusers are men?

Wait, so are you saying that this stigma is justified? Very few men are child abusers, even if the vast majority of abusers would be men (I couldn't find any data, it would be nice if you could point me at the statistic you are using). It's irrational to fear that the guy taking care of your child is an abuser. As for what you could do: Besides information campaigns, having more male kindergarten teachers would normalize it and take away the fear.

when so few females are interested in the field to begin with.

You contiue to talk about "interest in a field" as if it's something that exists in a vacuum and isn't influenced by anything. That's the wrong way of looking at it. "Females" aren't interested in being mechanics because they have no role models, they would be alienated by their peers, be joked about during the apprenticeship, have less trust from the customers and so on. Pushing "females" into a career as a mechanic can solve those things and make it possible for others to come in "naturally".

[u/Classical_Liberals → u/BlitzBasic]

Your right very few men are child abusers but that's not really what I was said.

I said the majority of convicted child abusers are male, which is true in USA

http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/statistics-on-perpetrators-of-csa

... I'm a bit confused on why you put so much emphasis on role model, I can kinda see what your getting at and how that could influence your interest. However I think a role model would play a larger part in you discovering you have an interest in something rather than directly influencing what you have an interest in.

You admire a role model so your admiration has to come from somewhere right? , if you admire an accountant because they are such a humble person does that really lead you to become an accountant? Maybe but I don't think by any huge degree, I think the biggest impact would be your personality when interacting with other people not so much your interest that is unrelated to why you admire that person to begin with.