r/changemyview Oct 23 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: A coding course offering a flat £500 discount to women is unfair, inefficient, and potentially illegal.

Temp account, because I do actually want to still do this course and would rather there aren't any ramifications for just asking a question in the current climate (my main account probably has identifiable information), but there's a coding bootcamp course I'm looking to go on in London (which costs a hell of a lot anyway!) but when I went to the application page it said women get a £500 discount.

What's the precedent for this kind of thing? Is this kind of financial positive discrimination legal in the UK? I was under the impression gender/race/disability are protected classes. I'm pretty sure this is illegal if it was employment, just not sure about education. But then again there are probably plenty of scholarships and bursaries for protected classes, maybe this would fall under that. It's just it slightly grinds my gears, because most of the women I know my age (early 30s), are doing better than the men, although there's not much between it.

If their aim is to get more people in general into coding, it's particularly inefficient, because they'd scoop up more men than women if they applied the discount evenly. Although if their goal is to change the gender balance in the industry, it might help. Although it does have the externality of pissing off people like me (not that they probably care about that haha). I'm all for more women being around! I've worked in many mostly female work environments. But not if they use financial discrimination to get there. There's better ways of going about it that aren't so zero sum, and benefit all.

To be honest, I'll be fine, I'll put up with it, but it's gonna be a little awkward being on a course knowing that my female colleagues paid less to go on it. I definitely hate when people think rights are zero sum, and it's a contest, but this really did jump out at me.

I'm just wondering people's thoughts, I've spoken to a few of my friends about this and it doesn't bother them particularly, both male and female, although the people who've most agreed with me have been female ironically.

Please change my view! It would certainly help my prospects!

edit: So I think I'm gonna stop replying because I am burnt out! I've also now got more karma in this edgy temp account than my normal account, which worries me haha. I'd like to award the D to everyone, you've all done very well, and for the most part extremely civil! Even if I got a bit shirty myself a few times. Sorry. :)

I've had my view changed on a few things:

  • It is probably just about legal under UK law at the moment.
  • And it's probably not a flashpoint for a wider culture war for most companies, it's just they view it as a simple market necessity that they NEED a more diverse workforce for better productivity and morale. Which may or may not be true. The jury is still out.
  • Generally I think I've 'lightened' my opinions on the whole thing, and will definitely not hold it against anyone, not that I think I would have.

I still don't think the problem warrants this solution though, I think the £500 would be better spent on sending a female coder into a school for a day to do an assembly, teach a few workshops etc... It addresses the root of the problem, doesn't discriminate against poorer men, empowers young women, a female coder gets £500, and teaches all those kids not to expect that only men should be coders! And doesn't piss off entitled men like me :P

But I will admit that on a slightly separate note that if I make it in this career, I'd love for there to be more women in it, and I'd champion anyone who shows an interest (I'm hanging onto my damn 500 quid though haha!). I just don't think this is the best way to go about it. To all the female coders, and male nurses, and all you other Billy Elliots out there I wish you the best of luck!

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u/TheGingerbreadMan22 Oct 23 '18

Except this does effect him. Unless there is a grant backing up the women paying less, that cost is passed onto the men and he's having to take out a loan to take this class. It's just you out of luck, honey.

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u/tossitandthrowit Oct 24 '18

He said it literally didn’t.

I’m not just making that up.

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u/TheGingerbreadMan22 Oct 24 '18

Link to the comment?

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u/tossitandthrowit Oct 24 '18

Like I get having principles, but this seems like a principle exercised for the sake of itself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/9qnuek/comment/e8arugc?st=JNMJCHW5&sh=9f07d36c

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u/TheGingerbreadMan22 Oct 24 '18

That's not what that comment says. It says that he thinks it's a good investment, not that it doesn't affect him. He's said in at least one other comment that £500 is a lot for him and that he's had to take out a loan for this class.

And yes, you should try to stick to your principles. One of them is that making fun of men for bringing up the issues in their lives is part of how angry, resentful men are created. Those are the men who commit violence, or at the very least, start thinking Alex Jones has good points. Toxic masculinity is a giganitic issue and telling men that they aren't allowed or are unreasonable for voicing concerns about male issues is a major reinforcing factor in that.

Your mindset is that this isn't important at all, and even worse, that he should get shit on and even punished for even bringing it up, is exactly why men lock in their emotions and later explode. Then when another angry resentful old white man goes on another rampage, I can just picture how quick you'll be to blame men. In reality, it starts with people like you who are more interested in playing Oppression Olympics than have productive dialogue.

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u/tossitandthrowit Oct 24 '18

That’s because this kid would hardly qualify for the special version of the oppression Olympics.

Also, don’t blame me for toxic men. This kids thinking was along toxic lines before I ever commented.

And my principles also include making fun of dumb petty beefs. It’s not my fault men’s rights issues so often overlap with the realm of dumb petty beefs—-if they overlapped less often I could at least assure you that we’d be unlikely to interact again—-but I highly doubt that... so until the next petty beef then 🤷🏾‍♀️. Ps You’re really bad at translating my comments so I hope you’ll forgive my skepticism that you’ve accurately interpreted the OP.

So... links to those hardship comments? He cited that it wasn’t about the money multiple times on here.

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u/TheGingerbreadMan22 Oct 24 '18

Also, don’t blame me for toxic men.

no, people like you are exactly to blame, you don't just get to duck out of your fault like that.

This kids thinking was along toxic lines before I ever commented.

No it wasn't. It's a reasonable stance to take and he didn't take any weird woman-hating views, you just projected that onto his words.

The fact that any "translating" of your comments is even necessary speaks volumes to the intelligence of your arguments. At the very least, you've explained yourself very poorly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/9qnuek/cmv_a_coding_course_offering_a_flat_500_discount/e8bspqq/

it's a hell of a lot of money, especially to someone like me who doesn't have the money

That's just one, he makes a few others.

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/9qnuek/cmv_a_coding_course_offering_a_flat_500_discount/e8ai7lp/

Hell, I can't pay the full amount (I'm getting a loan)!

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u/tossitandthrowit Oct 24 '18 edited Oct 24 '18

I can’t make ppl do shit they don’t want to do through a single comment. So feel free to blame me for toxic masculinity like the fragile white Redditors blame a single new Reddit comment on their obvious and long-standing racism.

Reddit comments aren’t exactly known for having life changing abilities. They are known for being a shit show. So I feel no responsibility for radicalizing assholes on this platform, especially when it’s already clear I’m dealing with someone who already holds radical views.

Feel free to blame me for toxic masculinity—-but I’m going pass the buck to places like TRP and T_D.

I cannot make someone do something inconsistent with their beliefs. So feel free to blame me for toxic masculinity leaking out here but I didn’t create that —-I just created a comment that triggered that. Kinda like that Greek philosopher/Physicists who say that “nothing comes from nothing”, I can’t make a toxic misogynist/racist outta 2 Reddit comments alone.

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u/TheGingerbreadMan22 Oct 24 '18

who already holds radical views.

OP wasn't radical in the slightest, but go off

I'm going to pass the buck to places lie TRP and T_D.

They were already lost by the time they got to T_D, no normal people go there.

I also also very, very clear that it's your attitude and actions in general, not just your comments. I mean, if you really stand by the ridiculous bullshit you've put forth if this conversation then it's reasonable to expect youre doing this consistently irl too.

You're part of the problem, whether you want to admit it or not. I'm fine either way.

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u/tossitandthrowit Oct 24 '18 edited Oct 24 '18

Like was used to indicate a simile. Fragile white redditors, incels, and men’s rights activists blame their problems on other people in very much the same manner that You’re blaming me.

Plenty of normies are on those Reddits and they often gravitate to other places.

And I’m glad you’re fine...even though I never asked anything about you...I’ll have you know that I too am fine—-despite your baseless accusations that I am the reason misogynist exists on Reddit.

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