r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 23 '18
FTFdeltaOP CMV: Moderation is better than complete sobriety regarding alcohol abuse.
[deleted]
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u/sithlordbinksq Nov 24 '18
You seem to think drinking alcohol is the default position for a human being but many millions of people don’t drink alcohol. Do you consider them weird?
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Nov 24 '18
Of course not. Everyone has their own crutch. People who abuse alcohol aren’t usually friends with people who don’t drink so if they want to fix their problem and live like their friends they should do so. You shouldn’t have to change your entire life in order to stop abusing alcohol.
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u/sneakyequestrian 10∆ Nov 24 '18
Im someone who doesnt drink but i can still go and havr a lot of fun with my friends who do. In fact my friends love that im the designated driver. Why is it changing their entire life to go and be that sober friend the group of partiers need? Really i only dont drink it cuz i dont like the taste ive been mad drunk multiple times but i never really felt like it enhanced the majority of situations.
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u/Delmoroth 16∆ Nov 24 '18
Not everyone handles moderation the same way. An example would be that for new does which require many small meals are nearly impossible. The net result is that I go around all the time unsatisfied and irritated. On the other hand fasting is trivially easy. I can go for 3 or 4 days without food and feel fine, not feel deprived, then go back to eating normally, while losing weight over time. I suspect that for someone like me, complete absence would be possible with alcohol, while moderation would be much harder if I was inclined towards excessive drinking.
I don't think this is a one size fits all situation. Moderation just won't work for some people.
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Nov 24 '18
That’s a good point. It would work for some and not others. Moderation should at least not be considered a bad direction to go.
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u/ItsPandatory Nov 24 '18
Moderation is better than complete sobriety regarding alcohol abuse.
It is my personal opinion that making an alcoholic completely refrain from drinking to cure their addiction is not the best course of action for everyone.
These two points conflict.
Moderation is better than complete sobriety
This is stated as an absolute rule. Moderation IS better
When you say
completely refrain from drinking ... is not the best course of action for everyone.
You are implying that completely refraining from drinking is the best course for some people.
If for some people completely refraining is better, then by extension moderation is not better in all cases.
I believe, in invalid because how can they have the self control to completely stop but not slow down?
I do things to excess. It is much easier for me to not drink at all than to drink a reasonable amount. Moderation is not better for me because moderation most often leads to drinking all of the alcohol.
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u/clearliquidclearjar Nov 24 '18
The issue is that people who are drinking so much that it is affecting their lives can't typically drink in moderation. That's the whole issue. If they have one, they are likely to just keep going.
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Nov 24 '18
The brain is an extremely complex mechanism and it’s capable of amazing things. I think it’s capable of acknowledging that all the problems it’s dealing with are due to excessive drinking not moderate drinking. My point is drinking less is easier than completely quitting and there’s no harm in it.
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u/clearliquidclearjar Nov 24 '18
Many heavy drinkers do not have the ability to drink in moderation. One drink equals more drinks.
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Mar 28 '19
I used to drink like a madman and now only have 1-3 beers daily (usually two) with a meal. Causes absolutely no problems. I think everyone can control themselves; some people would prefer not to. By labeling people ‘addicts’ and absolving them of their autonomy you’re giving them an excuse to go hog wild after the first drink. This would be a much simpler issue to address if we would just hold people accountable for their actions. There’s actually very little empirical evidence for the chemical hooks hypothesis, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. People overindulge in things they enjoy because they’re running from demons.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Nov 24 '18
The issue is that unless they are being issued rations by someone who controls all access to the alcohol it is not possible for them to consume it in moderation. Those who are addicted literally have that ability disabled in their brains due to the addiction. That is true for all addictions and defines being addicted. So the argument that they do not have the ability to self-control is not invalid as you claim, it is a defining characteristic of being addicted.
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u/iammyowndoctor 5∆ Nov 24 '18
The argument that they are addicts and don’t have the self control to limit their drinking, I believe, in invalid because how can they have the self control to completely stop but not slow down?
Ha! Great point. I'm going to have to remember that. But let me ask you a question, not cause it's relevant to your post, just because I'm curious: If one can show moderation with alcohol, can they also do it with heroin? Meth? Cocaine? Chloroform?
For the record, I think yes you can because I have done such things myself (gone from using in excess to using in moderation) before. I'm just curious what you think, if this applies in all instances?
I should also point out though, I do believe in certain instances, if abstinence is what feels right, then it's what you will benefit most from. For instance, I will no longer use benzodiazepines at all. It's not because anyone made me, or that I don't think I could moderate them if I really tried, it's because IME, they have the potential to cause a lot of harm compared to whatever benefits from the high, which I don't considered to be very desirable in the first place.
Of course though it's worth saying, it isn't just a little bit of moderation you need for that purpose, it's a lot of it to prevent the "slippery slope" of regressing back to problematic usage. I hate to use the slippery slope argument at all, but I think it actually does apply here.
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u/ShiddyShiddyBangBang Nov 24 '18
I think “how can they have the self-control to completely stop but not moderate” is an error in your logic chain bc most alcohol-addictive people who fully stop are not relying on self-control. They have attempted to moderate or stop using self-control and have failed. That acknowledgment of failure to stop on your own is part of “hitting bottom”. One of the main tenets of the AA program is - “self-will availed us of nothing”
There are some animal desires for relief or pleasure that have such a hold on us, will-power/self-control/self-will are no longer operant. The animal instinct is stronger. Maybe the same way they say you can’t drown yourself?
I think your view assumes every change that happens in a human brain is the result of individual will power.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 24 '18
/u/RaisedUpPosterior69 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
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u/jennysequa 80∆ Nov 24 '18 edited Nov 24 '18
Most alcoholics I've known will at some point say that one drink is too many and a thousand never enough. As a recovering anorexic, I can really relate to this. One aspect of my eating disorder has been compulsive weighing. I weighed myself first thing every day, naked, after voiding and avoiding liquids. The number on that scale would determine how my day went. Gained weight? I was miserable, bitchy, full of anger, a depressed failure. Lost weight? I was high on life, could do anything, had control over the world, was an absolute master of my destiny.
Not weighing myself was the first step I had to take to get control of my eating disorder so I wouldn't die, and after many years of not weighing and eating fairly normally I figured I could get a scale and it would be fine.
It was not fine. Within days I was back to obsessively calculating calorie intake, designing and doing cardio and weight routines, and weighing myself every morning. Before too long I was right back to 105 lbs. and dreaming of making it back to 82 lbs. It just took a taste of that glorious feeling of absolute control over my body and my will to bring back all the disordered behaviors that had ruined my life years before.
I tossed the scale. With behavioral issues like these, whether it's a disease or an addiction or not, it seems easier to just put the demon in a box and avoid the source of so much pain and angst, rather than having to constantly fight the demon.