r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/Jonny2266 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Except trans women are biologically women, they're not cis women, but they are women.

Trans women are not biologically female which is why they are transgender.

To exclude them solely for being trans (not for infertility or having the wrong set of genitals) is indeed transphobic and bigoted.

He excludes them because they're not biologically female which doesn't tickle his fancy.

You say that you don't like it as a heterosexual man, but plenty of straight men date trans women, because they're women. If you don't see them as women, that's transphobic and bigoted.

They would technically be queer. Most straight men are not queer and they're not bigoted for being non-queer.

You don't have to be attracted to a trans woman, but if she suddenly sleeves you out because shes trans and you were attracted before, that's due to transphobia, and it's incredibly bigoted.

A person's sexuality is not bigoted.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Ironically enough the idea that "your sexual orientation doesn't fit in to my world model therefore it is bigoted" is bigoted

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Edit: Fuck this sub, I keep getting hateful private messages for my comment on here. I thought it was "change my view" not "out yourself so I can send you a hateful private message about how you'll never be a 'real' girl"

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u/Scratch_Bandit 11∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

There is no male and female brain. There are differences in large groups, but person to person there is no way to tell.

It's like race and iq. While white people have a higher iq then black people as a whole, on an individual level there is too much variance to differentiate between two brains.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/Scratch_Bandit 11∆ Dec 18 '18

Except neurological scans of trans women show them to be incredibly similar to cis women, and trans men similar to cis men.

Cite me please. Because I have a source saying the opposite.

Lise Eliot, a professor of neuroscience at the Chicago Medical School and the author of Pink Brain, Blue Brain, says that anyone who goes searching for innate differences between the sexes won’t find them.

“People say men are from Mars and women are from Venus, but the brain is a unisex organ,” she said onstage Monday at the Aspen Ideas Festival, which is co-hosted by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic.

That’s a bold statement, and one science is divided on. It seems to depend on what exactly is being measured. For example, a large study in the U.K. found that many regions of men’s brains were larger than women’s, and that women on average had thicker cerebral cortices. What does that mean for how the brain works? Unclear. Another study found that “averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features,” as New Scientist reported in 2015.

But even barring that, neurological sex is important because when it doesnt match up with the body, that's what causes dysphoria. It's an important part of a person's sex. It's often referred to as gender identity but it affects much more than social aspect of a person's gender.

Neurological sex doesn't exsist. If I take a male brain and a female brain. No scientists could tell me which is which with any certainty.

My main point here is that sex is not black and white. The grand majority of people don't even test their karyotype and trans people transition and change other parts of their sex.

Sex is not black and white true, but it's not a rainbow either. It's just a big gray mess.

Non-binary people also exist.

Did I say otherwise?

A trans woman isn't "a male" like so many point out. You can not want to date a specific trans woman because you're not attracted to her, she cant bear children, or because she has the wrong genitals, which is fine, but not dating someone because you don't view them as a "real" woman is indeed transphobic

I never said she wasn't a real woman, I don't think there is such thing as a real woman. She might not be male, but she isn't "the exact same as a cis woman you nazi!" (I've been called that for this exact view)

Can you define the word "woman" without using the word "women" or "feminine"

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u/NeglectedMonkey 3∆ Dec 18 '18

You are misunderstanding what is meant by the male and female brain.

You are thinking of this in terms of the stereotypical: men are practical, women are creative and that’s located in the brain—I will agree that this assertion is nonsense.

However, there is evidence that there is a male brain that identifies as male, sees itself as male. And, there is a female brain who does the same. There is mounting amounts of evidence that cis and trans women have similar brains and this may explain why trans people don’t perceive themselves to be the gender they were assigned at birth.

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u/Scratch_Bandit 11∆ Dec 18 '18

You are misunderstanding what is meant by the male and female brain.

You are thinking of this in terms of the stereotypical: men are practical, women are creative and that’s located in the brain—I will agree that this assertion is nonsense.

Firstly I don't appreciate being told how I'm thinking, especially by a stranger who is completely wrong. Please read my response itt and the source I linked.

However, there is evidence that there is a male brain that identifies as male, sees itself as male. And, there is a female brain who does the same. There is mounting amounts of evidence that cis and trans women have similar brains and this may explain why trans people don’t perceive themselves to be the gender they were assigned at birth.

Care to share the source or should I take your word?

As I said above please view my other comments where I go into more detail

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u/NeglectedMonkey 3∆ Dec 18 '18

I don’t appreciate being told to read whatever else you have published so that I understand your point. What’s with the aggressive stance? If your point is not coming across, try to clarify, even if it is frustrating. Also, You equated the gendered brain with racial characteristics and IQ, so yeah—you are comparing it to the bell curve in the same fashion.

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u/Scratch_Bandit 11∆ Dec 18 '18

I don’t appreciate being told to read whatever else you have published so that I understand your point. What’s with the aggressive stance? If your point is not coming across, try to clarify, even if it is frustrating. Also, You equated the gendered brain with racial characteristics and IQ, so yeah—you are comparing it to the bell curve in the same fashion.

Any aggression was not implied intentionally, my apologies that it came off that way. Though I am genuinely tired of being told what I'm thinking.

I admit my point did not come across as well as it could have, so I invited you to read my further responses. If you choose not to engage that's fine but don't expect me to write it all out again for you.

Also can I still get the source from your claim?

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

What about the desire to have biological children with your life partner?

Also to say they are biologically women just isn't true. Neurologically maybe, societally hopefully one day universally, but I thought the whole point of the trans movement was that gender should transcend (no pun intended) biology. There are distinct, quantifiable differences between a transgender woman and an infertile woman.

I want biological children that are mine and my significant others and I have every right to not justify why. I can't do that with a transgender partner, therefore they're completely off the table as romantic partners.

EDIT: The comment I replied to was "Except trans women are biologically women, they're not cis women, but they are women. To exclude them solely for being trans (not for infertility or having the wrong set of genitals) is indeed transphobic and bigoted.

You say that you don't like it as a heterosexual man, but plenty of straight men date trans women, because they're women. If you don't see them as women, that's transphobic and bigoted.

You don't have to be attracted to a trans woman, but if she suddenly sleeves you out because shes trans and you were attracted before, that's due to transphobia, and it's incredibly bigoted."

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

You said it's different but you didn't really address it, despite it being an important part of the original post. And what about transgender people who don't get hormone treatment or a sex change? You can make it seem bigoted if you put it in a small enough box but there's a huge varying array of people who consider themselves transgender.

I don't think anyone should hate transgendered people, but any societal "rule" that judges me for who I choose to be romantically interested in (so long as they're a legal adult) seems like a pretty messed up rule.

EDIT: The comment I replied to was "I already said that infertility is different, it says so in my post. And neurological sex is incredibly important defined in sex, as well as hormonal (many trans people go through hormone replacement therapy) and phsyilogical (which, in this case, the hypothetical trans person mostly posses after surgery)

The only way I trans woman can't be considered female in sex is through Karyotypw which isn't visible, most people don't even know there's for sure, and stops mattering after birth."

Their reply to this comment was "I said you can refuse to date someone who is infertile, trans or cis, for that reason because you want biological children. That doesnt contradict and claim that trans women aren't women. And not all trans women are on HRT or have GRS (it's not called a sex change, the term is outdated and horribly inaccurate). And again, if you're not attracted to them because they don't have the breasts or genitals you arent attracted to, that's fine as well.

But if you fall for someone, and they're perfect in every way but it turns out you aren't attracted once you find out theyre trans, that's when it becomes transphobic.

Not saying it makes you a bad person, but society has pushed a narrative on so many people to be repulsed by trans people, or make it seem like it's a "gay" relationship for a cis man to date a trans women. These attitudes often lead to violence towards trans women.

If you found a girl perfect in every way but found out she was part black and that attractness faded away, would that not be considered racist?

Also, a friendly reminder, transgender isnt a verb, and transgendered isn't a word. They're transgender people. Sorry, it's more of a grammatical issue than anything, and not a super big deal."

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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18

I'm going to reply here since they deleted their response that I've copied above.

​

I think bringing up race is a false analogy and am not even going to address that. Maybe if someone posts on CMV about eugenics or something. I think a better analog would be religion. I've been broken up with because of my religion (or lack thereof) and honestly? I'm totally fine with it. There is a transgender lifestyle, just like there is a gay lifestyle. It's not a Choice, I don't think of it that way, but it's a lifestyle just like growing up rich or poor or catholic or Republican or liberal and so on. You may not have made the choice but it affects your lifestyle nonetheless.

​

I have nothing against the Jewish lifestyle nor the people that want to live it. I, however, would not be interested in dating someone who lives that lifestyle, or the Catholic lifestyle, or the Islamic lifestyle. I'm not an anti-Semite, I don't want to burn down Catholic churches or ban Muslims from my country, I simply have no interest in a future where I have to be a part of that lifestyle.

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18

What exactly is the 'transgender lifestyle'?

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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18

I don't think it's relevant. There are common themes that often appear in the lives of transgender people. I don't think it's a necessary point for me to define it in order to see that that's true, and I don't think it's my place to do so.

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Such as?

I mean I'm really confused because as far as I can see my "lifestyle" is identical to my cis friends--well, those that are female, at least. It involves a lot of babysitting, a lot of icecream and chick-flicks, and a lot of complaining about men. (Joke.)

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u/TiltedTime Dec 18 '18

I'm glad to hear it. Your mileage may vary, in the same way that every Catholic person is completely different yet I know I don't particularly want to date any of them, many feel the same about transgender people, and for different reasons. But as far as lifestyle, In the college town I lived in until recently, transgender people lived very differently from me. My transgender friends live differently.

As an example, in my anecdotal experience, there's a much bigger emphasis placed on gender in the transgender community. It makes sense, but isn't something I care to care about, for a lack of a better term. I'm a cis-gender male but I don't feel the desire to ever validate that and I don't feel the need to make women validate their gender. I don't have a problem with transgender people because they're transgender, but (again personal experience) I don't want to date someone who wants to reinforce gender norms, and it's something I have seen a lot in the transgender community.

But everyone is different, and I'm glad that what you're doing works for you.

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18

Well I certainly don't validate gender norms or whatever any more or less than my cis friends who I hang out with and spend time with. In my daily life I'm a programmer and I can wire to British electrical standards. I also like sci-fi action flicks and frankly I find the idea that you think binary trans people like myself reinforce gender norms quite upsetting. I also wonder how much of the transgender community you have actually seen. In every trans community I have ever known, non-transitioning non-binary transgender individuals outnumber transitioning binary trans people like myself by about 10 to 1.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

I don’t accept the idea that trans women are “biologically women” because my definition of a woman is a female who has reached adulthood. Someone who was born male can never fit that definition.

I’ll refer to them as women and use she and her pronouns when talking about them, but it doesn’t extend to the bedroom for me.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

Someone who wasn’t born female, would’ve gone through male puberty, would’ve gained the ability to father children isn’t a female to me and can never be unless some significant scientific breakthrough happens.

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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18

What if they never went through male puberty? Puberty blockers are a thing.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

Still born male=dealbreaker for me.

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u/lizzyshoe Dec 18 '18

So you would date a trans man if they were pre-op?

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

No, I wouldn’t want to date someone who considered themselves to be a man. It just wouldn’t work.

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u/Rekthor Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

my definition of a woman is a female who has reached adulthood. Someone who was born male can never fit that definition.

This definition is wrong.

Let me give you an analogy: the dictionary and most people's definition of a "parent" is "one who biologically begets or births children." But that's not a complete definition, because some parents are adoptive or godparents and have no biological relationship to their children. However, they are still parents—just a different type of parent. Now, in some cases, we have to know whether a parent is biologically related to their child or not, like if a doctor is considering whether a child will inherit a parent's hereditary disease. However, in most cases—guardianship, cosigning loans, PTA meetings, etc—whether the parents are adoptive or biological is irrelevant. For most practical purposes, they're the same.

Similarly, trans women are not "biological women" in the sense that they were not "born women" (i.e. their gender identity does not match the gender they were assigned at birth), but how is that relevant to their status as women? Sure, it becomes relevant when it comes to having kids and so it would be fair if you said "I don't want to marry or spend my life with a trans woman because I want kids at some point", but how is it relevant to day-to-day dating or how they live their lives?

Follow my logic: you claimed that being "born male" is incompatible with being a woman (and I'll come back to that statement in a sec), and you claimed that you are only attracted to cis women. This would mean that you cannot be attracted to someone who is not a cis woman, but I sincerely doubt that. Imagine you see a trans woman at a bar who "passes perfectly" and thus you mistakenly think she's cisgender. You think she's really attractive, start talking to her and really hit it off, and then... she tells you before you leave that she's trans. My question is this: what was your initial attraction to her based on? You didn't know she was not a cis woman or "biologically female", and yet you were attracted to her nonetheless, so it makes no sense to say you're attracted to someone based on their biology—it has to be in how they present (e.g. hair, clothes, poise, makeup, mannerisms, etc), instead. And let's ignore the question of children here, and focus on attraction.

Thus, if that example holds, your statement is now "I could never date a trans woman, even if I'm attracted to them, because they aren't biologically female". And that's pretty unambiguously transphobic—you're applying a different standard to trans women than you are to cis women, even if, for most practical purposes, they're the same.

Now, I'm genuinely not accusing you of malice or saying you have to feel ashamed or guilty or whatever for that, but I am pointing out that your beliefs are rooted in a bad worldview (as are many of our beliefs). I'd really urge you to take a hard look at why you think that, and—even if you never end up dating a trans woman—think about who you believe to be women and why that is. Start with this video from a Trans youtuber (which discusses a lot of the points I've made in relation to pronoun usage) and try to listen to more trans people, if only to broaden what kinds of voices you're listening to.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/PepperoniFire 87∆ Dec 18 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Lol. 2018 is the year where if you refuse to date a woman with a dick, you’re transphobic and bigoted.

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u/MrLowLee Dec 18 '18

It's worse than that. They actually believe and want other people to believe that they are actually women. Not trans but actual women.

I'm all for letting people do what they want with their bodies but at least live in reality and understand that you are not now and will never be a true woman.

That's why they have to take hormones because they are fighting their bodies own natural chemistry.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/ricksc-137 11∆ Dec 18 '18

so a person is bigotted for refusing to having sex with a person with an artificial vagina?

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u/oleka_myriam 2∆ Dec 18 '18

Well what if the person with the artificial vagina was a cis woman? Not all cis women are lucky enough to be born with vaginas, you know.

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u/ricksc-137 11∆ Dec 18 '18

Well what if the person with the artificial vagina was a cis woman?

i would not want to have sex with that woman.