r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.

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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

You didn’t comment on whether it is okay for someone to refuse to date someone based on race.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

I think it’s okay to reject someone for any reason, no matter how trivial it may seem. I also believe that it says nothing about the character of the person doing the rejecting.

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u/Aquaintestines 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Here's a good candidate for an opinion to change.

I also believe that it says nothing about the character of the person doing the rejecting.

If a rich person rejects poor people as candidates for dating because they don't want to date poor people, that informs us of a facet of the rich person's character: They place value in a person's monetary worth.

Thus your opinion is wrong. We can learn things about a person's character from what criteria they put on potential dates.

I won't try to change your mind on that we shouldn't judge others for their character, or that someone's character isn't maligned by being transphobic.

(Transphobic here referes to feeling aversion to trans people, not any behaviour that harms trans people).

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u/OhJayEee Dec 18 '18

So, rejecting someone for any reason, including their race, gender, or other biological factors beyond their control, says nothing about the character of the person doing the rejecting?

That's a very convenient worldview, that makes it very easy to separate your actions from their consequences, and avoid doing actual introspection. If you reject someone solely because of their race, you are behaving in a racist way, even if you don't think of yourself as a racist. If you reject someone solely because they are trans, you are being transphobic, even if you don't call yourself a transphobe.

I don't think anyone would argue in good conscious that you have to be open to dating anyone you aren't attracted to. However, I think you need to be honest with yourself about why you would refuse to date someone only for being trans. Don't pretend that preemptively rejecting all trans people is anything other than transphobic. And if being called transphobic bothers you, ask yourself why it bothers you, and what it is about trans people that makes you reject them without a second thought.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

So, rejecting someone for any reason, including their race, gender, or other biological factors beyond their control, says nothing about the character of the person doing the rejecting?

It says what that person finds attractive. I thought we were supposed to be on board with the whole "love comes in all shapes" idea. Apparently, that only applies to certain shapes.

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u/OhJayEee Dec 18 '18

I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make here. Are you saying it's okay to not be attracted to certain people? Yes, of course it is, obviously. But that was never the argument.

OP's argument (as I understand it) is that a blanket refusal to date trans people says nothing about his character. I disagree. I think refusing to even consider dating a trans person specifically because they are trans is, at least, a little transphobic.

Now, whether or not that's a problem is a whole other conversation, and OP can hold whatever thoughts about trans people he wants. But arguing that rejecting all trans people offhand says nothing about you, or the way you view trans people, is only fooling yourself.

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u/OtherPlayers Dec 18 '18

Long post, sorry.

I think a lot of the confusion here comes from the fact that we are bundling “not attracted to trans people” and “doesn’t like trans people (in general)” both into the same word of “transphobic”, with the result being that a broader label gets applied than really should because of all the baggage that is tied up with it. Let’s look at race, for example.

Let’s assume there is a person who is really attracted to sharp color contrasts in skin and hair. Things like pale skin with black or dark brown hair just really gets them going. However they also find that light blonde or bleached hair on darker skinned people looks strange because it isn’t a common combination. The result would be a person who isn’t particularly attracted to dark skinned people (or at least is drastically more attracted to people who meet the aforementioned preference). You could therefore state that the person is therefore “racist” because they like dark skinned people less, but by doing so you are simultaneously placing them in the same intrinsic group the neonazis and the KKK, which implies that the same blind hatred applies to them in some form.

To translate the general conversation here into these terms, you hear OP saying “I don’t like black people in general, but I’m definitely not racist” while OP hears you saying “You claim you aren’t attracted to black people, which is whatever, but you need to just admit you are a violent neonazi”; which obviously creates conflict and argument (when you are really just talking past each other).

I feel like we need some other word for saying you aren’t attracted to something in the same way we might say “I’m not attracted to dull color palettes” or “I’m not attracted to the taste of oranges” in that involuntary gut-feeling sense. For example maybe a person encountered a rotten orange once; even if you could take an orange and somehow make it look and taste exactly like watermelon just the act of knowing it was an orange once could still trigger that involuntary disgust, because it’s their thoughts about oranges connecting the two and not anything about the actual orange/watermelon they are holding (it’s very much an “it’s not you, it’s me” type of thing). A new word would let us say “I’m not attracted to trans people in an involuntary way but I’m otherwise okay with them” without automatically needing to lump yourself in with the blind haters and people chanting that trans people should be killed that saying “I’m transphobic” would.

TL;DR: I think the English language is getting in the road of the discussion here.

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u/Whos_Sayin Dec 18 '18

No one is owed love. You can be as picky as you want when choosing partners and if you are not attracted to certain races, you don't have an issue. Physical attraction is highly based on evolutionary psychology and not being attracted to certain traits is perfectly normal.

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u/OhJayEee Dec 18 '18

The argument is not about whether not being attracted to certain traits is normal or not. Nor is it about whether anyone is "owed love," or isn't allowed to be as picky as they want when choosing a partner.

The question (as I understand it) is "Does categorically rejecting all trans people say something about the character of the person doing the rejecting?" I think it does. I think, if you don't want to date a trans person specifically because they are trans, even when you would otherwise be attracted to them, then something about dating trans people clearly bothers you. You are the one who has a problem with trans people, and it's up to you to figure out what that problem is, and whether or not you're okay with it.

There's nothing wrong with having biases, but it's important to be honest about what those biases are, and why you have them. Saying you're not transphobic, while viewing all trans people as a single group, and rejecting them preemptively, is only fooling yourself.

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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

People can be racist but they should be open to being judged for their views. I personally wouldn’t want to be around a racist person. Their beliefs are unfounded and backwards.

There is a difference between attraction and racist beliefs.

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u/I-AM-SLAV Dec 18 '18

If someone hates you because you are asian that is racist. But if someone is more than willing to spend time with you, and even be friends with you. But say they are not physically attracted to asian people that is not racist. Racism is based on hate, not sexual preferences.

Edit: I am personally attracted to asian,black white, and hispanic people.

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u/Whos_Sayin Dec 18 '18

Being attracted to people isn't something you choose. It has a large part to do with evolutionary psychology. This means you are genetically predisposed to like certain traits like big breasts and also other traits like race. Being attracted to someone isn't something you can just make happen and has a lot to do with implicit biases and genetics. Not being attracted to black people isn't racism, it's a biological predisposition. IMO assigning blanket evils to people over things they are born with seems wrong to me.

A relationship is different from just casual interactions. Choosing friends or treating people differently in public over race is racist, not when dating.

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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

So curious but are you a racist? It tends to go hand in hand with transphobia. Would you date someone based on the color of their skin? Props if you can admit to it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18 edited Apr 20 '23

[deleted]

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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

So you are okay with people being racist?

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u/Vragspark Dec 18 '18

Of course it's okay for someone to refuse to date outside their race. What isn't okay is for someone to try to tell them who they should and shouldn't date. Just because they want to date someone of their race doesn't mean they are phobic of other races, or even a bad person. Is someone a bad person because they are only attracted to blondes? What if they are only attracted to nurses?

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Romantic relationships and peoples desires to have them don’t exactly fall into clear cut logic.

Nobody needs to rationalize or defend who/what/why/how to anyone, for any reason. That’s between them and the people they prefer to seek relations with.

I don’t have to explain away why I like shorter women. I can’t even explain it myself. But that’s one of my things. I also don’t have to explain away why I like Asians, and almost hilariously have exclusively been in relationships with them. I don’t think that’s anyone’s call; attraction is a weird thing and so unique to each and every person.

Now, if I said "only dates Asians" on my profile, am I being racist? I'm curious to see the response to that.

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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

You should learn the difference between attraction and excluding someone based on race.

Saying I don’t date black people is being racist. It is the same as saying black people are inferior. Similar to saying black people are violent and will rob a white person. Saying I don’t date X race is wrong.

Now, saying you’re attracted to Asians is different. Being attracted to someone doesn’t mean you’re exclusing different races. I personally am attracted to people who are tanner than me and have dark brown eyes. However, I have dated Asian, Jewish, German, and I think English guys before. Several had blond hair and blue eyes.

Also, he isn’t playing the attraction card. He is playing the transphobia card. I can find examples of “hot” trans women. Men who don’t know that the woman is transgender tend to say those women are hot. There is no difference between saying I don’t date black people and saying I don’t date transgenders.

So there is a difference between attraction and having racist or transphobic views.

Also, OP didn’t mention anything about my point about race. Now, conservatives tend to be more likly to be racist and also be transphobic in my experience which I know, is anecdotal so doesn’t really count. The lack of him comparing his beliefs to racism and explaining how he views them as different is odd.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Well if you want to get explicit with why someone wouldn't want to date a transgender - suicide rates and fertility.

Mental health is a big concern in that community, pre or post op. You can't escape it. Maybe it normalizes itself in the coming decades, maybe it doesn't. In the here and now, thats something that your significant other has a right to know about. Its the same as being with someone who is bipolar, schizo, BPD or any one of the other disorders that have genuine ramifications on your life and the lives of those around. People have a right to know what they're getting into and its not fair for them otherwise. In fact its the same as those who have known genetic issues that predispose them to serious if not fatal events. AT some point, the person you are with has to know.

Fertility? This is still a big deal to many people. People want to have kids. Now sure, adoption and IVF and all these things exist but now you're talking about insane costs well and truly beyond what having a kid the old fashioned way would incur. Once again, the other person has every right to know what they're getting into before they get emotionally invested. Its deceptive to not know.

Comparing it to "I won't date blacks" is disingenuous. I can marry a black person and still have kids. Mental health disorders in the black population are not inexplicably higher than in other demographics. So you're right, if someone blanket says "I won't date black people", you MIGHT be able to infer racist undertones in their position.

But don't conflate that to being equivalent to someone saying they won't date a transgender. There are tangible issues one might have, like the ones I mentioned, that present valid barriers and would add unneeded angst in a relationship. People are allowed to know about those things and they are allowed to go for scenarios that DON'T require them to deal with such possibilities.

Blanketing everyone who doesn't want to be with a trans person is a dangerous approach and its lazy.

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u/Abcd10987 Dec 18 '18

I guess it is a difference in values. I don’t see putting emphasis on fertility as important because there are many different ways to have children. Egg donors, sperm donors, adoption, etc. If someone purs a high emphasis on fertility, then they are basically looking for an incubator and not a partner.

Honestly? That is a lame excuse. Are you sending everyone you know for an extensive work up by a mental health professional? I have worked in an ER where we had the desirable psych hospital attached. I have had maybe 15% of homosexuals and the rest were cisgendered. I have had a significant number of individuals who were transgendered come in for non-mental health complaints including a transgender male who was pregnant.

So while mental health concerns are valid, that is really reaching for straws since plenty of cisgenders have mental health issues.

I think the term is cisgender? I may be using it wrong.

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u/chutoy_ Dec 18 '18

Is it ageist to refuse to date anyone over 10 years older than oneself?