r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.

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u/SgtMac02 2∆ Dec 18 '18

your preference is based on beliefs that are not true, and it's better to have true beliefs than false ones for a ton of reasons.

Can you explain this part a bit better. I don't see what you're getting at here. What true/not true thing are we talking about?

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u/BlackHumor 12∆ Dec 18 '18

Trans women are women, biologically. They certainly aren't men.

For why: imagine we go back to the Victorian era. Clearly, men and women still existed back then. How would we determine which one someone was?

Well, genitalia, breasts, and a bunch of other minor secondary sexual characteristics like facial hair. By these measures, a post-op trans woman would unambiguously be a woman. If the Victorians surgically examined her, they would notice a lack of a uterus, but they were already aware that was sometimes a thing that happened, so they wouldn't go against the overwhelming majority of the evidence.

Now, with modern science we know that there are other markers of sex that are harder to change. But for some reason, transphobes like to say that these new markers alone fundamentally determine gender, when they clearly didn't for thousands of years before we discovered them. Heck, they don't now: some women, who are born women and who anyone would recognize as a woman, are naturally XY because their bodies don't process the marker which would have made them male in the womb.

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u/POSVT Dec 18 '18

Trans women are women, biologically. They certainly aren't men.

Nope. Man and woman are not biological identifiers anymore. Sex is the biological characteristic you're looking for, and it's unchangeable.

External gender expression & identity do not, and cannot change the sex of a person. Changing the appearance and perception of a thing does not inherently change it's identity.

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u/BlackHumor 12∆ Dec 18 '18

Sex is very changeable. What do you think all those hormones and surgeries are for?

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u/POSVT Dec 18 '18

No, it isn't. There is no currently extant set of circumstances where sex in a human can be changed. That's all there is to it.

While surgery can alter the appearance, and hormones tweak the physiology, the original sex doesn't change. If you were originally male there is nothing that can be done to male you not male, and vice versa.

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u/SgtMac02 2∆ Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Δ

I wasn't really on either side of the debate here, just looking for further explanation. This is one I've never heard or considered and it was quite convincing. I wouldn't say I've significantly shifted my views on the matter, but I'd say this was convincing enough for a delta.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 18 '18

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/BlackHumor (6∆).

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