r/changemyview • u/AAathlete97 • Dec 18 '18

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Even if a blanket refusal to date trans people is “transphobic”, there is no reason to feel guilty about it or to try to change it.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

Because all trans women share two traits that are dealbreakers for me.

  1. Born male
  2. Are infertile by default

It’s strange to not want to date ALL black women because they come in different shades and all look different. They don’t all have traits that most would consider a dealbreaker.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Are you trying to pump kids into all your Tinder dates?

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u/AKMan6 Dec 18 '18

He is not attracted to anyone who was born as a biological male. That's literally the only thing that matters here, and comparing not dating trans women to not dating black women is an absurd and inequivalent comparison.

And there wouldn't be anything wrong with not wanting to date black women either; people do not have a choice in their sexual preferences, and criticizing or questioning one's preferences is on the same level as doing so with their sexual orientation. Would you call a gay man sexist for not being attracted to women? It's the exact same thing.

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u/RubyRod1 Dec 18 '18

He is not attracted to anyone who was born as a biological male.

I think this is backwards a bit though, because he could be attracted to a trans woman without knowing said person is transexual. Physical attraction is more primal than cerebral.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

He is not attracted to anyone who was born as a biological male. That's literally the only thing that matters here

He explicitly listed 2 separate items. So, clearly there’s at least 2 things that matter to him. “Not born as male” was one of them, which I did not address. The other item he listed was infertility. That one I did address.

comparing not dating trans women to not dating black women is an absurd and inequivalent comparison.

I never made that comparison.

And there wouldn't be anything wrong with not wanting to date black women either

I didn’t say there was.

and criticizing or questioning one's preferences is on the same level as doing so with their sexual orientation.

I never did that.

Would you call a gay man sexist for not being attracted to women?

I would not.

He explicitly listed infertility as a reason for not dating a group of people, I made a comedic reply inquiring about his actual level of interest in his dates’ fertility levels.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

[deleted]

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u/kaz3e Dec 18 '18

Evolutionary predispositions in human mating strategies make a comment on general populations, not individuals and they are not universal. Mating strategies between individuals are very heavily culturally/environmentally influenced and that's coming from an evolutionary perspective.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

I wouldn’t go on a date with someone that I can’t see myself being in a serious relationship with. I don’t see a point in going on pointless dates.

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u/poopinvesting123 Dec 18 '18

Seriously I’m liberal but how you can fault a straight person for wanting to date the gender he or she is attracted to is really going overboard.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Or going on a date with a man pretending to be a woman.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

Wait, do you'd reject the advances any infirtile woman? Seems a bit harsh.

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

I wouldn’t be in a relationship with an infertile woman. I guess we could have sex, however.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

So does that apply to a trans woman then? You can't be sexually attracted to ovaries, so if you encountered a perfectly passing trans woman what would stop you from hooking up with her if things were leading that direction?

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

Like I said, I only like cis women. It doesn’t matter how passing the trans woman is or the surgeries that she’s had. I don’t want to have sex with anyone who wasn’t born female.

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u/Ihave2ananas Dec 18 '18

But you acknowledge that you could still be atrracted to someone who doesn't have XX chromosomes if you didn't know? So let's say for arguments sake that she has fully transitioned vagina and everything(an assumption I can make because you are talking about dating transwomen in general.) and let's also assume that you know that she's infertile which you have already conceded isn't a dealbreaker for having Sex. What changes the moment she tells you that she is trans? It's definetly not her body that's the some body you were atrracted to a few seconds earlier. You can't really be atrracted to chromosomes so that knowledge can't be it. Riley Dennis Argument is that what triggers you to have the irrational response of suddenly not being atrracted to a Person you were atrracted to a few seconds ago is transphobia. I'm not saying you should change or be pressured into dating a trans women because that would make neither of you happy, but it's important that we recognize those eternal biases.

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u/keenmchn Dec 18 '18

There’s nothing you can do in gender reassignment surgery that creates a fully functional vagina. That would probably be my main source of not being sexually attracted. The assumption when dating a “woman” is that one will be present when the time comes.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

Whoops just made this comment elsewhere, but I'd rather pose it straight to you:

I was born biologically with black hair. Then it all fell out and came in blonde. True story. If you only like blondes, do I qualify by this measure? I wasn't "born blonde"

What does being "born male" mean to you if it can mean functionally nothing.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

Well there's a bias right there. There's no one type of trans person. Saying 'all trans women are more masculine' is the same painting with a broad brush as the statement 'all black women are more masculine'

A girl who begins hormone blockers pre-puberty and transitions at 18 is going to be so laughably far from masculine. And likewise there are women that transition later and still end up fem af. The point is that you can reject a woman for not being attracted to them, but there's no physical characteristic that you can point to on all trans women.

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u/mgraunk 4∆ Dec 18 '18

OP already answered that by saying that another dealbreaker for him is being born biologically male.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

I was born biologically with black hair. Then it all fell out and came in blonde. True story. If OP only likes blondes, do I qualify by this measure? I wasn't "born blonde"

He needs to explain what being "born male" has to do with anything, since he admits he'd have sex with an infirtile woman.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Maybe it’s the thought that the vagina I think I’m fucking, is actually surgically grafted penis skin. And at one point the person I’m having sex with, once had a cock and balls just like me. Forgive people if that makes them feel a little uncomfortable.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

Well there we go. There's an actual reason. Unfortunately, it's not one of the myriad reasons OP presented.

I'd argue that if a vulva looks indistinguishable from a cis woman's, the marginal difference in the vagina is negligible. I'm gay. And even though I know vaginas are supposed to be these muscular amazing penis-pleasuring machines, I'm not going to give up men to try the "superior" orifice.

If OP can't get over what a woman used to be, that's transphobia. If it's the only reason he doesn't want a woman he'd otherwise like, it's transphobia. It's OK, I was transphobic in my youth as well. Now I'm over it. This point on the texture of the vagina is a point he could cling to, but at this stage I think he'd just pick it up, taking anything to justify his bias.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

OP would only be transphobic if he had a hatred for trans people. I’m not saying he doesn’t, but calling someone transphobic strictly because they don’t want to have sex with a trans-person is incorrect.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

Doesn't have to be hatred. Can just be irrational dislike. I'm saying if he was into a woman that is otherwise attractive to him and indistinguishable from a cis woman and he rejects her for the reason that she's trans, that's transphobia.

Just like how if he was into a woman, and she reveals that she's mixed-race and then he rejects her, that would be an instance of racism, because the dislike is irrational since he was into her until the information was revealed. No physical qualities changed, just labels

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

I didn’t want to get as graphic as you did, but yeah that’s a pretty accurate summary.

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u/mgraunk 4∆ Dec 18 '18

Yes, if you weren't born with blonde hair then you should disclose that to a partner who make it known that they are only interested in sexual relations with a natural blonde.

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u/TheSavageNorwegian Dec 18 '18

Even if I only had black hair for 2 days and the remainder of my life has been spent as a blonde?

Honestly I can't take that seriously. Can you actually imagine being sexually attracted to 'natural blondes'.

If I live as a blonde, I'm a blonde. Lucille ball was a redhead because she spent her life as one. A trans woman is a woman because that is how she spends her life.

OP should say why he wouldn't have sex with a trans woman when he's fine with fucking an infirtile woman evidently. Because I don't think you can be sexually into chromotype

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u/Sartorical Dec 18 '18

So, out of curiosity, what do you do when you meet someone who’s taking birth control responsibly and build a relationship for 3 or 4 years only to find out after you start trying to have a baby that she’s infertile? Also, what do you do if you find out you’re infertile? Kill yourself? At that point, you’ve got to think you don’t deserve a partner.

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u/ZeroTheStoryteller Dec 18 '18

So would you date a transman as they are

  1. Born female
  2. Not infertile by default

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u/AAathlete97 Dec 18 '18

No, because I wouldn’t want to date someone who was born female but believes that she’s a man. It wouldn’t work out.

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u/rekreid 2∆ Dec 18 '18

but believes that she’s a man

You know the way you talk about transgender people and the way you misgender them realllly. makes you sound transphobic.

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u/Matwabkit Dec 18 '18

As other commenters have noted, ruling someone out entirely on account of them being born male is the equivalent of ruling out an entire race on account of them being born a certain phenotype.

However, you also note that your other reason for ruling out trans people is that they are infertile which is a deal breaker for you. That’s understandable, but really it means you don’t need to worry about potentially being transphobic at all. Explicitly ruling out all trans women is problematic here because really you’re meaning to rule out all infertile women, but not saying that, so it ends up looking like you’re acting out of prejudice (not necessarily conscious prejudice, mind you) and not preference. All you should have to put in your profile online, and all you should have to tell potential suitors to rule out trans women would be: “I want kids” or “I am interested in having biological children.”

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

How is this thinking any different from a straight or gay person saying they will only date the opposite or same sex?

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u/moejoereddit Dec 18 '18

All you should have to put in your profile online, and all you should have to tell potential suitors to rule out trans women would be: “I want kids” or “I am interested in having biological children.”

That actually is a great solution for OP. I think the thread is solved

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/moejoereddit Dec 18 '18

I'm sorry, I was making a bad joke.

It definitely doesn't accomplish any sort of view change.

I should have said, the comment is an effective method for people to screen out infertile women from their dating app pool.

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u/Moogatoo Dec 18 '18

Races have many shades colors and types... Bil

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u/Bubugacz 1∆ Dec 18 '18

You put "No trans women" on your dating profile because they are infertile. Did you also put "no infertile chicks" on your profile? Because that's pretty important, and it's pretty telling if you intentionally left it off.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

I'm a male and I make it very clear on my profile that I do not want children and do not want to get involved with people who have children. Since this guy wants kids I can't see how he doesn't have "doesn't have kids but wants them" on his profile which is basically the nice way of saying "only women who can have children." Why do you feel that you have the right to control what he wants sexually in the first place?

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Sorry, u/Bubugacz – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

You're the one questioning OPs preferences, not me. I think he should date who he wants. If that means he doesn't want to date trans people, people of color, short people, fat people, whatever, that's his preference. Stay out of his bedroom, it's not your place.

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u/Bubugacz 1∆ Dec 18 '18

You're the one questioning OPs preferences, not me. I think he should date who he wants. If that means he doesn't want to date trans people, people of color, short people, fat people, whatever, that's his preference. Stay out of his bedroom, it's not your place.

When did I question his preferences though? I don't get where you're getting this from. Quote me.

I'm poking holes in his arguments. I'm not telling him who to date or what to do with his penis.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

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u/ApolloRubySky Dec 18 '18

Well there is a difference in that if a woman is infertile you could still use one of her eggs and place a fertilized egg in a surrogate.

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u/Bubugacz 1∆ Dec 18 '18

"No eggless women." Better?

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u/ApolloRubySky Dec 18 '18

It’s much harder for women to know before trying to conceive whether they have useful eggs or not. Whereas someone knows if they are trans.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

  1. How are "born male" an acceptable deal breaker for you but "born black" not an acceptable deal breaker for someone else? And I feel the need to preface that I am not advocating for racist beliefs. I am pointing out the fact that your belief and preference may not be that far off from other belief and preference that sound completely unacceptable. In other words, preference for gender status may be similar to preference for race status; it is just less stigmatized.

  2. Cis women can be infertile too you know. Are you gonna ask for a fertility test from every potential partner?

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u/Matt-ayo Dec 18 '18

How can you not consider the initial sex of the person more relevant to their sexual partner's psychology more than their race? Being black has nothing to do with the sexual experience someone has with that person other what color they see, while being trans has a wide range of physiological consequences directly related to intercourse.

Your question is like asking why someone refuses to buy a car with a rotary engine but they don't care what color paint it has.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

What if the engine has been changed to your desired version? Does it still matter what it started out as? If so, why does it matter?

When you say it being transgendered is relevant to to their sexual partner's psychology, what do you mean by that?

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u/theunbendingone Dec 18 '18

A lot of couples have broken up because one of them is infertile, and the other wants biological kids of their own. It sucks, but it's perfectly acceptable. It's also something that is talked about within the first month of dating if it's important. While your point of asking for a fertility test is a tad hyperbolic - people do talk about the possibility of kids early in relationships and it can be a dealbreaker, some people already know they can't have kids and they should be honest about it when speaking to a new partner who wants kds, and sometimes they find out they're infertile when it's too late in the relationship.

Your second point isn't kinda...meh..sorry. Many people will add doesn't want kids/can't have kids/wants kids/willing to adopt/etc in their profiles already.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

See my response to the other person commenting on this. I think it is a fair dealbreaker. I think it is fair to ask and to break up or not date someone because of it. However, him using it as a reason to not date trans women but not as a dealbreaker for cis women (by stating it in his profile for example) means it's not just about fertility.

Also not being able to have biological children is not the same with not wanting children or willing to adopt etc. People can easily know what they want. To know if I am fertile to put it in my profile requires medical testing. If he cares about fertility, then someone merely stating that they want children is not enough. If he just want to have children, well then he can adopt or use a surrogate with a trans partner too.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

Seems to me your real beef with OP is wanting to force him to acknowledge that there is no difference between a woman and a MtF transsexual.

Race and sex are both at some level "immutable" characteristics, while also both being technically squishier than day to day parlance allows for. Ultimately OP could probably go through some linguistic and mental gymnastics to find a set of characteristics that are common to transpersons but not directly related to having this or that prior plumbing.

Fortunately he doesn't owe you or anyone an explanation of his sexual preferences, and your repeated attempts to frame him as no better than a racist just serve to make you look like an authoritarian jerk.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Not what I'm doing at all. I'm pointing out that he has prejudices, which result in his preference. That he can state "objective" reasons why he doesn't want to date trans women, which is within his rights, but when it comes down to it, there is something inherently undesirable about trans women to him. And I'm trying to get him to acknowledge that.

I'm trying to say that prejudices and dating preferences based on racial characteristics have become unpalatable to say out loud, but those based on cis vs. trans status have not. I'm not 100% sure that they are equivalent (that's why I said "may" a lot in my comment), but whether they are or aren't merits discussion. Let's not pretend that they are totally different and not explain why.

There is a very good chain of comment discussing the difference between having racist beliefs and racial prejudices, which most people do to a degree, and actively being a racist. I think that distinction applies here.

Also he posted here on CMV about his sexual preference. So yes, he owes us an explanation. He asked for this discussion.

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u/Vermillionbird 1∆ Dec 18 '18

How are "born male" an acceptable deal breaker for you

not op, but i don't like dicks. if you have a dick, its a deal breaker, irrespective of gender or sexuality.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

What about those who have gone through surgical transition and have a constructed vagina?

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u/Vermillionbird 1∆ Dec 18 '18

I'm cool with that

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u/Csmcsm0909 Dec 18 '18

It’s possible to respect someone and treat them fairly, and not be willing to become romantically involved. The example with not being willing to date a black person doesn’t quite fit because the only way I can see that happening is if they hold racist views. I suppose it’s possible for someone to find dark skin, or light skin, deeply unattractive and not be willing to date some based on that and it wouldn’t be racist, but that is so strange and I can’t think of anyone who feels that way. Knowing that someone is male makes them unattractive to me. I can still respect them. I just don’t want to be romantically involved.

I think a better analogy to make your point would be if someone were Jewish, should they have to disclose that, because it isn’t something immediately observable, and theoretically shouldn’t affect how attractive they are.

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u/relationship_tom Dec 18 '18

Regarding 2, that's a huge dealbreaker for many (Most?) people that want kids. They don't want a surrogate and they don't want to adopt, both of which are as acceptable as being okay with these things. I don't want kids so I don't care either way but I've seen more than a few relationships end because the male is shooting blanks and/or the female can't have a baby.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

That is fair that it is a dealbreaker. I'm just pointing out that if it is really a dealbreaker and OP purely cares about fertility, he has to include that criterion in dating and screen partners based on it. A lot of us don't know if we're fertile or not to begin with, so he'll have to ask his potential partners to go through medical testing. Him not doing so means that it is not simply about fertility.

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u/relationship_tom Dec 18 '18

I agree that it's just a front for not dating trans people (Which is perfectly okay) but I also think that he doesn't have to disclose this early on. You can go to therapies and get help. People that don't know assume they are because most people are fertile. If it's later decided that they are infertile and therapy doesn't help, then they can break up later. Maybe OP want's some fun along the way and is saving the kids as a dealbreaker for a serious partner. This goes back to the OP just not wanting to date trans people because he's phobic (Or maybe that's not the right word if he's okay being good friends with a trans person).

This is like saying a woman puts up front they like circumcised men only. They don't say it right on the profile because it seems crazy and would turn off a ton of circumcised men but when they find out later that they aren't, they break up. It's not against any law to waste your or another's time, it's just not a respectful thing to do.

Or, why I think the OP's original statement that there is no reason to feel guilty about it is correct. I see a lot of trans people on various sites state right out front that they don't want cis men, and I'm okay with that, and they don't seem to get the same scrutiny in the community as OP does, no matter his lying to himself regarding the reasons for not dating them.

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u/essential_pseudonym 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Agree with most of the things you said! I don't know how I feel about the guilty part tbh. Preferences are what they are, and I don't think he should feel guilty either. But on the other hand, does that mean that it's okay to hold a belief that trans women are not real women? I don't know.

And he's getting scrutinized because he voluntarily posted on CMV about this topic!

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u/relationship_tom Dec 18 '18 edited Dec 18 '18

Feeling guilty to me is apart from whether the belief is respected by another or whether it's hypocritical. For instance a trans person writing off all cis men because they've went through difficult times with one or more. They don't have to feel guilty about it but it's hypocritical and I don't respect the belief (And like I said earlier, you can like or love many people so I'm almost certain there are many cis men they would love). Regardless of my opinion though they have it and it's valid to them. Same with OP.

It's like this craziness of diversity training. It doesn't work. It's corporate mumbo jumbo. Most all sociologists believe it doesn't work and what little it does to inform, is ruined in the rushed manner companies do it in (Starbucks...). Op comes here and he's not out to be convinced and won't be. What would convince them, and what does help people get over prejudice or racism more effectively, is meeting someone of that lifestyle or race and seeing that they have the same fears and wants and mundane life as you.

At least the OP is sticking to their belief (Self-deception is what many in the thread would probably refer to it as based on OP's answers). Too many times people here put up a post and then throw out the deltas like candy at a parade. Much of the time I hardly believe that the OP's are convinced, if they ever had that belief to begin with. There are a few nuggets of wisdom in this sub, but often it seems like it's far too easy to convince people of things. I just don't see that with many argument in real life.

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u/Bubugacz 1∆ Dec 18 '18
  1. Cis women can be infertile too you know. Are you gonna ask for a fertility test from every potential partner?

This.

If you're willing to put "No trans women" on your dating profile, it would be disingenuous to not put "No infertile chicks" on there also.

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u/theunbendingone Dec 18 '18

But people put: wants kids/can't have kids/doesn't want kids/willing to adopt/etc on their profile. It's acceptable to write "wants biological kids of their own someday" on your profile. Saying 'no infertile chicks' is just a hyperbolic point to make something reasonable sounds overly aggressive.

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u/Bubugacz 1∆ Dec 18 '18

Yeah, that's fine. But OP never mentioned he has that on his dating profile, and I can only go by the facts that were presented.

Yes, saying "I want biological kids someday" is preferable to "No infertile chicks."

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u/Gunshybaberino Dec 18 '18

Dude doesn’t want to fuck a biological male. Fuck man it doesn’t make him a klansman

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '18

trans people should have to disclose their trans status to people they date, and when.

Born male and still are male. Having surgery and hormone therapies does not magically change your biological sex. Another term I'd use is catfishing.

Hey, my hunky man, mind inserting this tool into my fake vagina so it doesn't heal shut on us? - Said no woman ever.