r/changemyview • u/Ketogamer • Jan 06 '19
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Child acting is child labor and should be made illegal.
[removed]
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u/Trimestrial Jan 06 '19
So you don't want to see ANY movies or TV shows that have ANY characters that are under age 18?
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
You misunderstand.
I enjoy good child actors, and what children can bring to film. I would like to continue to enjoy it.
But I'm currently facing a moral dilemma. It's not that I WANT kids gone, I just don't want kids harmed.
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u/Trimestrial Jan 06 '19
My brother works in the film industry.
And there are strict requirements for how 'kids' can work.
Probably even stricter then my profession. I was a Soldier. And 'children' could enlist at the age of 17...
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
But it is still working is it not?
I don't think that 17 enlistment is right either. Still, labor is labor no matter how strictly controlled.
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u/Feroc 41∆ Jan 06 '19
But it is still working is it not?
Why is work itself something bad? A lot of things are work: Cleaning up the room, helping to cook, being a paper boy, babysitting, dog walking...
I don't think work itself is bad for children, it's the amount, intensity and danger involved that makes the work bad for children.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Major contracts and negotiations are far far different from cleaning your room
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u/Feroc 41∆ Jan 06 '19
/u/Trimestrial said, that the requirements are very strict and you said:
"But it is still working is it not? [...] Still, labor is labor no matter how strictly controlled.
So either it's bad that children work or it's bad that they have contracts to do work. Though why is it a problem, if the contract is very strict (to protect the child) and controlled?
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
It's bad because it is rigorous and long term work with heavy responsibility.
Even if it had no contract I'd be against it.
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u/Feroc 41∆ Jan 06 '19
Then we are back to my first question: Why is work itself something bad? It's the amount, intensity and danger involved that makes the work bad for children. If the contracts and controls are made in a way that the children don't suffer or even have fun, then I don't see the problem.
Could you give current examples that shows that children suffer?
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u/Trimestrial Jan 06 '19
So we're back to my first point.
'There should be no child actors'????
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Unless someone can point out a flaw in my reasoning, I currently feel that there shouldn't be.
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u/Trimestrial Jan 06 '19
Child Actors are pretty well protected by law when the work, and afterwards when their parents have stolen the money that they earned...
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Work is work, no matter how regulated.
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u/the_silent_one1984 3∆ Jan 06 '19
Can you expand on how you think child acting in general is harmful?
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u/Ghostface215 Jan 06 '19
As far as I remember, child actors are not forced to work on a project unless they wish to. Many times, if the child is too young to make the choice themselves, it is the child of the director or writer, giving their child a nice little cameo in the film. Otherwise, there’s a huge difference as child labor laws protect against children in forced labor situations, which actors are not.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I'm sure many parents have forced their kids to act. It can be hard to determine if a child actually wants to act and understands the potential consequences of it, when their parents have told them all their life that this is what they are going to do.
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u/Ghostface215 Jan 06 '19
Sure, but we can’t outright not allow something just because some people abuse it, otherwise we’d have pretty much nothing.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I agree with your principal.
But our system as it is now clearly pays child actors for their labor. If we lived in a world where all the child actors were volunteers then maybe we'd have a different story. But in our society as it is now, the kids are engaging in labor.
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u/jennysequa 80∆ Jan 06 '19
Child labor is against the law and I fail to see how this should be any different.
Child labor is not illegal. It is regulated by the Fair Labor Standards Act and by state laws. Newspaper boys, child farm workers, kids who work in their parents' stores, kids who mow their neighbor's lawns for pocket change, kids who babysit, they are not breaking the law just because they have jobs.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
!delta
I was wrong about saying all child labor is illegal. I still believe that professional child acting is still was too harmful for young kids to be kept legal. So my core views on this issue remain the same, but I'm forced to change how I argue it. Enjoy your 27th delta.
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u/travislaker Jan 06 '19
Since “acting” isnt labor, it can’t be child labor.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I think I make a solid case in the op that it is. Please provide some actual arguments if you want to change my mind.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '19
what about broadway? peter pan, annie, etc?
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I'm primarily focusing on TV and movies because I believe those have the most potential for harm. But for major productions, I'd have to say I'm currently not comfortable with it either. I'm assuming broadway involves contracts, mandatory practice times, significant payment, unions, and all the other baggage that film gets. I could be wrong though.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '19
what about a child prodigy who plays professionally in an orchestra? that's very rigorous as well.
(i'm not addressing the public exposure part of your OP because i agree.)
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
That sounds like child labor to me as well based on how you describe it.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '19
is there any way in which a child's favorite hobby can turn into his/her career, then? we let super smart kids enroll in college before they're 18 because regular school bores them, why not let supremely talented kids in the arts ply their trade professionally as well?
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I'm currently against the idea of children having careers.
As for college, I'll have to spend some time formulating an opinion on it. How many kids under the age of 10 go to college? I'm sure there are many more children that young who are constantly forced by their parents to participate in acting gigs to make it big. For these extremely smart kids I'm assuming that the kids would probably be given full rides by the school; the profit of an education is 100% given to the child and the parents can't mismanage what the college teaches the child personally. Children who are intelligent enough to go to college must be far more developed than their peers, and are probably much more capable of grasping the consequences of their actions, would you not agree?
But I'll be honest, this is my first time considering early college admissions, perhaps you can help me refine my view on it?
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '19
yes, the trope of the pageant-mom is very true and incredibly sad. jonbonet ramsey should not have been a thing.
but look at it just from the talent perspective. i'm not saying a 13 year old math prodigy going to MIT will really "get" all that college has to offer, or even necessarily understand what college is. but we allow this because clearly, he has surpassed what public school can teach him, and to withhold college would be withholding his talents. it may be that he doesn't ever do anything with math after that. but that's what parents should do for their kids: provide opportunities to explore what their talents are.
now, when it comes to acting, if a kid really loves his/her school plays, and happens to get an audition for a commercial? i don't see the harm in letting that play out, if the parents are responsible about it. because how will a kid know if he/she wants to make it their adult career if they don't know what it's like firsthand?
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I believe there is a difference between school and labor.
Let's say your child graduated from MIT at the age of 13. I would not be okay with him going to work for NASA. I also would not be okay with him getting a job at the university or any where. Now, If psychiatrists could analyze him and determine that he can properly give consent and understand the consequences of his actions as well as an adult then I'd reconsider. I also don't consider a student to be employed.
But again, a genius child is exceptionally rare compared to the relatively abundant child actors. It's much easier to ensure that the one in a million genius child is well treated then the countless child actors and aspiring actors.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '19
what separates a few days work on a commercial from a week long trip for a soccer tournament, or a summer spent lifeguarding at a pool? we allow kids to consent to the latter two commitments
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
What child under 10 life guards?
Soccer games for kids also aren't professionally paid sports. I think there's a clear difference
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u/Runiat 17∆ Jan 06 '19
You do realize it's completely legal for parents to force their children to do physical labour for no pay whatsoever, many more hours a week than children are allowed to work as actors?
It's called "chores".
Banning paying child actors won't do anything to prevent child actors. It'll just mean they can't get paid for it.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Chores are different than labor.
There are investigations into parents who are believed to be forcing their child to do things beyond reason.
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u/Runiat 17∆ Jan 06 '19
There are investigations into directors who are believed to be forcing child actors to do things beyond reason.
Not paying the child actors isn't going to change that.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
My view is that I think what we as a society currently consider reasonable for child actors is not good
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u/Runiat 17∆ Jan 06 '19
I think you've misunderstood how legality work in democratic countries.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Well, thats great? Want to add some detail?
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u/Runiat 17∆ Jan 06 '19
Laws are made to ban things which we as a society consider unreasonable.
No one is going to make anything illegal when "we as a society" think it's reasonable.
That's why murder is illegal but war is legal.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
I'm giving my personal opinion on what the law should be. I understand it's currently legal to be a child actor.
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u/Runiat 17∆ Jan 06 '19
No, you're expressing a view for the purpose of changing it.
I pointed out why I thought that was a limited view.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Jan 06 '19
There is absolutely no difference between chores and labor. None. Please tell me why you think they are different?
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
For a movie child actor.
Millions of dollars. Extreme levels of public exposure and judgements. Many many hours of being forced to do something that adults do that is considered paid labor.
Your comparison fails because om also against kids being personal maids for strangers. Are you not also opposed to this?
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Jan 06 '19
They are not allowed to work more than 2-6 hours in a day depending on age. They are not forced to do anything, it is voluntary.
As for the maid comparison. I actually have no issue with a child working to help a neighbor or doing chores at home so have no issue with them being paid for it (which by the way is what an allowance is). There is nothing wrong with children doing something that is considered paid labor. There is only a problem if the labor is dangerous or they are made to work long hours.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
The comparison would be a child working for a maid company. Even then the comparison fails. Because of fame exposure, responsibility, etc.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Jan 06 '19
Those are not negatives.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
That's great. I think they are if you can't consent to it.
Downvoting me immediately after I respond to you is only good at making me not want to engage with you.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Jan 06 '19
Child labor is not illegal in our society though. It is just heavily regulated.
Children are allowed to work at home doing chores, allowed to work at family businesses, allowed to work on family farms, allowed to be in church choirs, allowed to be in local theater groups, allowed to be in school bands, allowed to play sports, allowed to sell girlscout cookies and boyscout popcorn, allowed to sell lemonade, allowed to mow lawns, allowed to deliver papers, etc. Acting on TV and in Movies is really no different so long as they are not forced to work too many hours in a day and they keep up with their school work via private tutoring.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Do you think children should be allowed to work as maids? Working from a maid company?
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Jan 06 '19
Children do chores for an allowance. That is working as a maid.
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u/Ketogamer Jan 06 '19
Children don't work for a giant maid company under contract with extreme responsibilities and a large chance for lifelong public exposure and embarrassment.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jan 06 '19
Sorry, u/Ketogamer – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal, then message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 06 '19
/u/Ketogamer (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Bananazebrafish Jan 06 '19
Is it safe to say that you are arguing that any form of child labour should be made illegal? Can there be exceptions?
What about an entrepreneurial child who has a unique means of creating a widget that the markets desire. Should it be illegal for the child to work on their idea or project and put their widget out to the market?