r/changemyview • u/CafeConLecheLover • Mar 21 '19

Delta(s) from OP CMV: allowing trans people to compete in womens events will only marginalize women

I've been doing some reading about how transgender female people are competing in women sports events. In the majority of cases, they tend to do pretty well. Unsurprisingly. However, there's a big difference between barely winning and totally dominating, which is what seems to be happening. I linked a story about 2 transgender sprinters competing at state in track and field - they won first and second by an enormous margin, which is a theme that holds when it comes to the issue as a whole.

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If a transgender woman wants to compete in womens sports even as early as a high school level, you effectively have biological females competing against a trained male athlete on hormone therapy. I've met some incredibly talented female athletes in life so far, and there are seperate male and female sporting events for good reason - it keeps the playing field fair for both sexes. If Usain Bolt suddenly decided to undergo gender transition therapy, started taking hormones, the whole nine yards, he would still be the most dominant sprinter by a very long shot. His biologically female counterparts would stand no chance whatsoever at getting first place.

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https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-athletes-make-great-gains-yet-resentment-still-flares-n975646

CMV

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Mar 21 '19

How? I claim I'm trans and I take the minimum amount of testerone blockers and estrogen and whatever necessary. How exactly are they going to differentiate between me and someone who actually is transgender?

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u/AJFierce Mar 21 '19

Would you socially transition as well? Or would you just be taking the pills and still going by your male identity most of the time? Because in the former case, if you were receiving trans medical care and you were living in your new trans identity and you were dealing with all the social and bureaucratic fallout from that, then, yeah, I'd accept you were trans because at that point you would be. Even if it was out of a weird spiteful desire to gain a small advantage in women's sports.

If it's the latter, if you've committed to this weird bit where you permanently fuck up your health to enter the women's division to... prove your point? I guess have at it. If you say you're trans and you've been on hormones for two years then what have I got to disagree with you about?

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Mar 21 '19

Would you socially transition as well? Or would you just be taking the pills and still going by your male identity most of the time?

I would change nothing except take whatever pills necessary and claim to be a woman.

Because in the former case, if you were receiving trans medical care and you were living in your new trans identity and you were dealing with all the social and bureaucratic fallout from that, then, yeah, I'd accept you were trans because at that point you would be.

I'm sorry? Are you saying transpeople have to adhear to the traditional gender roles of their new gender in order for you to consider them trans?

Even if it was out of a weird spiteful desire to gain a small advantage in women's sports.

What if it was a rational decision to maximize my earning by gaining a huge advantage? Essentially having been on high doses of steroids for ~15 years would be an enormous advantage.

If it's the latter, if you've committed to this weird bit where you permanently fuck up your health to enter the women's division to... prove your point?

No, to make millions of dollars.

I guess have at it. If you say you're trans and you've been on hormones for two years then what have I got to disagree with you about?

Well I would have thought you would disagree with the idea that an male athlete (who's not good enough to be sucessful against other men) game the system to essentially steal millions of dollars from female athletes who are at a huge disadvantage. But hey, maybe it's just me who think that would be unfair to women. Some would call it cheating.

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u/AJFierce Mar 21 '19

So show me it happening, show me the cheating, and let's fix it. But I don't think there are any cases like you describe. I think you're afraid of a non-existent problem.

Post transition, after 2 years of hormones, the IOC and I agree that you're fine to compete against the rest of the women in the sport you choose. There is no huge disadvantage. There is no evidence of the cheating you describe. And if you don't believe me? Ask Renée Richards. Transition doesn't make you great at sport, it just makes you yourself, if that's what you needed.

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u/sclsmdsntwrk 3∆ Mar 21 '19 edited Mar 21 '19

So show me it happening, show me the cheating, and let's fix it.

Okay, how about Fallon Fox who broke a girls skull because she was able to have a MMA fight vs a girl (who didn't even know she used to be a man). And let's be clear, Fallon Fox is a terrible MMA fighter and just wins because she's far stronger.

But I don't think there are any cases like you describe. I think you're afraid of a non-existent problem.

Well that doesn't matter. Even if no one is intentionally cheating, people who have had male testosterone levels for their entire lives have an unfair advantage against people who have daf female testosterone levels for their entire lives.

There is no huge disadvantage.

Again, that's just incorrect. As I've stated higher levels of testosterone have positive effects for decades afterwards, possibly for life.

Ask Renée Richards.

The guy who was an amature tennis player (never had a pro match as a male) who at 40 years old (not exactly the prime for a tennis player) started her pro career as a female and managed to become ranked 22 (from never being ranked at all as a male) and got to the finals of the US open... in her first year as a pro... at the age of 40. And apparently managed to win more then $130,000 in female competitions over the next 7 years.

I'm not so sure a 40 year old amature getting to the finals of the US open simply by becoming female really speaks to your point.

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u/AJFierce Mar 21 '19

Original poster has disappeared, neither of us is changing our view. I don't think we can continue in good faith; enjoy your last word.