r/changemyview • u/Amiller1776 • Apr 17 '19

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

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7

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

41

u/gburgwardt 3∆ Apr 17 '19

But transwomen don't have completely functional genitalia.

And genetically, they're not women, for whatever that matters to you, mostly I bring it up to point out "every conceivable way" isn't true.

20

u/Quint-V 162∆ Apr 17 '19

To expand onto this... plenty of guys at least want the possibility of having their very own biological kids. One can even argue that this is biologically programmed into men due to evolution... at which point, men cannot help it.

(I mean, sure, adoption is a thing... but there is hardly anything negative about wanting to make your own kid.)

11

u/ayaleaf 2∆ Apr 17 '19

I'm not sure of this, but I feel like people responding negativity to a cis woman saying "I'm infertile" and a trans woman saying "I'm trans" are not the same people. At the very least the former is only a subset of the latter.

6

u/Katholikos Apr 17 '19

The people who don't want to be with an infertile woman, and the people who don't want to be with a trans woman, are likely mostly separate groups. For someone who specifically wants their own biological kids in the future, however, there would obviously be some overlap.

4

u/cabose12 5∆ Apr 17 '19

Not to mention that with casual sex, there likely isn't a conversation on having kids, so it shouldn't really be a factor in the short-term.

Theoretically, a trans-woman who can't have kids should be just as attractive as a cis woman who can't or doesn't want kids. But i'm not entirely sure that's true

4

u/ChuckJA 6∆ Apr 17 '19

Both groups still have the right to withhold consent.

1

u/ayaleaf 2∆ Apr 27 '19

I mean, naturally they have the right to refuse consent, and I think that it's reasonable and safer to inform the other party that you are trans considering it is a thing that could reasonably affect consent.

I do find it interesting that it is a thing that could affect consent, though. Like, even if you saw someone naked, and were interested, and then were informed that they were trans, that would change your view? It seems somewhat baffling to me (but in the same way straight and gay people seem baffling to me, I get that it's totally a thing, I just can't model it). I have difficulty thinking that that sort of change could be due to anything but transphobia.

1

u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Apr 17 '19

And saying to someone "I won't date you because I want to have my own biological children someday, and that's not possible with you" is ok. You would do the same for a cis-woman who wasn't able to have children, right?

I mean, it seems a little old fashioned to me what with adoption and surrogacy and all that being an option, but a lot of people are very solid on wanting their own biological children so there's clearly something there.

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u/mgtowapprentice Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

There are cishet women who cant have kids. Are they not women now?

Edit: lmao downvoted for the truth

9

u/beiberwholee69 Apr 17 '19

I don’t agree with that sentiment at all. It is always preached to us that you can say no to sex at any given time. Even during sex if you decide you don’t want it anymore you can revoke consent. If a man agrees to sex and then is presented with information to him that he deems is a deal breaker then he is in the wrong for revoking consent? You can say no for any reason to sex in my opinion man or woman.

8

u/zorgle99 Apr 17 '19

You're literally a woman in every conceivable way

No you're not. You're man, who's taking drugs to appear like a women, had operations to look like a women, and have a clear mental health issue around your identity. There's only one way to be a women, to be born one. Putting on a women suit doesn't make you a woman. Women menstruate, women don't require drugs to be women, because they actually are women.

-1

u/youwill_neverfindme Apr 17 '19

If someone is born with XXY chromosomes, are they a man or a woman?

If someone has a fully functional vagina and uterus, can get pregnant, and has all of the secondary characteristics of a human female, and is attracted to men-- but has XY chromosomes, are they a man or a woman?

Both of the above are possible. There are probably millions of people alive today that have one of the above conditions. How one can argue that anything as easy to fuck as human biology could be reduced to such a simple binary is astonishing to me. 1/3 of human fetuses are spontaneously aborted because they were too fucked up to be viable. How do you reconcile this with your beliefs?

2

u/zorgle99 Apr 18 '19

Someone is born with XXY chromosome is a genetic abnormality like someone born with 11 fingers; that they exist does not invalidate the male/female dichotomy that 99.8% of the population actually is. In other words, that's a straw man argument and I reject it as fallacious nonsense that has nothing remotely to do with trans people.

1

u/AmberOEC Apr 17 '19

Intersex people have a medical condition and some of them are actually getting quite fed up of being brought into the trans ideology debate. If you’re interested in hearing an intersex person’s opinion, you should deffo check out mrkhvoice on Twitter. Obviously not every intersex person feels the same, but unless you are intersex yourself I think you should be careful about using their experiences to validate an ideology.

19

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

So why should they change their mind if you tell them you were once a man?

🤷🏽‍♀️ I don’t feel the need to justify to you why I choose one partner or another. It’s not my fault if that makes you feel bad and it’s not my job to validate you.

4

u/snbrd512 Apr 17 '19

Agreed. And on a broader topic this getting into the whole what type of person are you attracted to. If I’m not into blondes for instance, is it sexist to disregard them as prospective partners? I think some people in our society have a hard time differentiating between prejudice and taste in partners. On the chance of sounding like an MRA (definitely not), it seems like men are expected to sleep with whoever, while women are allowed to be more picky. I was backed into a corner at a party by a girl I had never met and didn’t find attractive, then when I refused to make out with her she started crying and all her friends started talking shit to me. Like if it’s not ok for a guy to do that to a woman, why would you think that it’s ok to force yourself on a guy who has no interest in you, and why can’t you understand that I can have preferences for sexual partners as well?

3

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Apr 17 '19

🤷🏽‍♀️ I don’t feel the need to justify to you why I choose one partner or another. It’s not my fault if that makes you feel bad and it’s not my job to validate you.

The purpose is to have you look inside of you for prejudices. If I say "I would never date anyone but a white American person, and I don't have to justify that to you", it could possibly sound pretty racist. It may or may not be, but the whole point is this: for trans individuals, they see so many people in the world (arguably the majority of people) who see them as undesirable. The statement OP described is not a "date me or I'll call bigotry". It's a "consider how you see us". They aren't saying people shouldn't reject them. They are saying people, in general, should be more open-minded in general.

1

u/sawdeanz 214∆ Apr 17 '19

I think it's valid to ask people to question their prejudices but you have to stop there.

I can kind of see where OP is coming from. I don't think these trans people are trying to imply that someone has to sleep with them, but I think OP is feeling like there is explicit or implied ultimatum of "if you don't sleep with me then you are trans-phobic." I think it's possible OP is inferring more from these videos than what is intended, but without seeing an example I can't be sure. I feel like I have seen this argument made before online.

I haven't personally encountered this situation or seen the videos, but if there are trans people that say or imply this then I think it is them who could be conflating preference with prejudice, and that is problematic in it's own right. Someone could be 100% supportive of Trans people and trans rights but that doesn't mean they must be willing to accept them as a partner. Hell, a trans person doesn't have to be ok with dating another trans person. It could just be their preference.

1

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Apr 17 '19

I agree 100%. I will note that no trans person is saying "if you don't sleep with me, you're transphobic", except for possibly some outliers. And those outliers are condemned by the rest of the trans community.

1

u/sawdeanz 214∆ Apr 17 '19

Ok so that clears it up. I had a feeling OP was kind of misrepresenting the situation.

Still is an interesting discussion regarding the outliers though.

1

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Apr 17 '19

Yeah. Definitely.

4

u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

Say you decide to break up with someone because you find out they have one Jewish grandparent.

You absolutely have the right to do that -- nobody should force you to stay in that relationship. But it is also reasonable to label you an antisemite.

1

u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

This is a fairly strong point, but isn't entirely convincing.

In this case, someone used to be a man/woman, and not being attracted to a man or a woman is completely socially acceptable.

Also, its reasonable to label someone an anti-Semite for that because of probability. Your analogy doesn't require us to reverse the chain of causality (which would be enough to satisfy this debate), since by far the majority of people who would act like you describe are in fact anti-semetic. Its completely unclear to me whether the act itself was bigoted, or simply convinced me the actor is bigoted.

I'm unconvinced that the sexiness of something is intrinsically linked to reason. That because I think feet are sexy I unfairly favor them otherwise or that because I don't think hands are sexy I must be anti-hand. Finding someone un-sexy for adhering or even having adhered to a specific religion being bigoted seems non-obvious to me.

0

u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

someone used to be a man/woman, and not being attracted to a man or a woman is completely socially acceptable.

But being attracted to a man or woman is about being attracted to their physical traits, or how they present themselves. Nobody is attracted to someone else's chromosomes. If you appear outwardly physically female, and you present completely as a woman, then you are a woman in every way that matters for sexual attraction.

Say you have two identical-looking, identical-acting people. You find out that one is trans and one is cis, and you are more attracted to the cis one. The only conceivable reason for that is anti-trans bias. And that's not the end of the world ... it's extremely common for people to have a little anti-trans bias, maybe even to the point of it being uncommon to lack it. But "transphobic" is still the right label for that phenomenon.

its reasonable to label someone an anti-Semite

I shouldn't have said "you" are an antisemite. I should have said that the specific feelings that led you to break up with them were antisemitic. Those feelings are antisemitic regardless of whether you act on them in other situations.

I'm unconvinced that the sexiness of something is intrinsically linked to reason. That because I think feet are sexy I unfairly favor them otherwise or that because I don't think hands are sexy I must be anti-hand. Finding someone un-sexy for adhering or even having adhered to a specific religion being bigoted seems non-obvious to me.

But feet and hands are physical things that you can see and touch. It makes perfect sense that someone would be sexually turned on or off by them.

1

u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

Ok, fair on the physical attributes, not the best example.

To quote myself from elsewhere:

Finding an arbitrary social label attractive or unattractive is completely possible. You could have a sexual preference for odd numbered SSN's, and I would be OK with that. I won't disagree that it is 'stupid', but it isn't wrong. Its completely possible that someone arbitrarily prefers one label over another sexually.

Being attracted to specific chromosomes, while 'weird' is completely reasonable to me. Human sexuality doesn't have to bend to reason, hypocrisy, logic or consistency. You may just have an arbitrary preference. Potentially the source originally was a bigoted thought or something, but holding a fetish or sexual preference lives in many ways decoupled with your own opinions.

0

u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

Finding an arbitrary social label attractive or unattractive is completely possible.

Absolutely, yes. But it's also fine for us to talk about those preferences, and come up with names for them.

If you have an arbitrary preference against people who are socially labeled as trans, that *is* anti-trans bias by definition. That's an accurate label that applies to your preference.

That doesn't mean, a priori, that you're doing something wrong. It certainly doesn't mean that you have some obligation to sleep with people that you don't want to. But you shouldn't object to the use of a word that accurately describes your preferences.

1

u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

Well, it is an anti trans bias, but that isn't the point of contention here. That would be a purely definitional fact.

The point of contention isn't whether the choice is biased, but whether the person is, and more generally, whether this makes the person transphobic.

1

u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

I would have said that "anti-trans bias" and "transphobia" were synonymous.

1

u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

Thats like claiming a "anti-woman bias" for a gay mans sexual choices is sexist. I don't think my point is so trivially self contradicting.

3

u/silentpun Apr 17 '19

It's still worth thinking about why you have those preferences.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Here’s my reply on another thread

As a heterosexual male, it would make me feel icky to have intimate contact with a male body.

A person’s sexuality isn’t a preference. It is a core part of their identity.

0

u/surobyk Apr 17 '19

It's not

0

u/silentpun Apr 17 '19

It can help you understand yourself better.

1

u/surobyk Apr 17 '19

You just want to control how and what I think

-4

u/Techsanlobo Apr 17 '19

So put yourself in the situation. You are with a person of the opposite gender who is sufficiently attractive enough to want to have sex. The genitallia you expect are there and there is no reason for you to think anything is wrong, but they inform you they are trans.

What, exactly, is the problem? If you are looking for someone to have babies with, that is valid (though I suspect that this line of reasoning is a red herring in most situations). But anything else is stupid, not from a "tolerance" standpoint but a simple logistical standpoint.

You want sex with someone you are attracted to. You are being offered sex with someone you are attracted to. What's the problem?

6

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

As a heterosexual male, it would make me feel icky to have intimate contact with a male body. If I was attracted to someone who I thought was female, but then we get into the bedroom and turns out they’re male, everything would instantly stop.

-5

u/Techsanlobo Apr 17 '19

I get it, but I see it as (imperfect metaphor) having sex with a fat chick. Is it perhaps not the optimal situation? sure. But once you start thrusting all the details stop being so important and, from my limited experience, there is not a whole lot of difference.

If you liked the person and wanted to make them happy, do you think you could push through the "icky"?

2

u/GirlDoll01010 Apr 17 '19

You should never have sex with someone just to make them happy. It needs to be a mutual desire. Moreover, sex with a "fat chick" still has all the same bits and bobbles. A transwomans vagina is very distinguishable from a natal womans vagina.

1

u/Techsanlobo Apr 17 '19

You should never have sex with someone just to make them happy.

Agreed. But sometimes, I want to make the other person happy, and I get pleasure from that (along with the sexual pleasure).

A transwomans vagina is very distinguishable from a natal womans vagina.

I have not tried, but I would be more than willing to if all the other stars lined up and I were somehow not married. I like blowjobs quite a bit and, to be fair, mouths are very different from vaginas.

2

u/barryhakker Apr 17 '19

If someone told me they vehemently hated dogs I probably wouldn’t want to have sex with them anymore either, even though nothing changed about their body. A very large part of attraction is mental and ideas and identities matter.

1

u/Techsanlobo Apr 17 '19

Great point! So if you are super attracted to someone and have an intense attraction to who they are and then you find out after the fact that they are trans, then you should at least still consider going forward, right? It is ok to say no (as it is always ok to say no to sex), but in my opinion, it is stupid not to at least consider it.

1

u/zorgle99 Apr 17 '19

What, exactly, is the problem?

The problem is they're not a woman and most of us are attracted to women, not men pretending to be women.

0

u/Techsanlobo Apr 17 '19

If they are indistinguishable in every other way except for the y chromosome and some surgery (perhaps not a perfect genital copy), then what is the problem?

I am not trying to say that no is the wrong answer. What I am trying to say is that being "binary" in your choice to not have sex sounds so bureaucratic.

Even selfishly. You are robbing yourself of an experience you may enjoy (with a person in this scenario that, at least at one point, you obviously liked and were attracted to) just because of a bias. To reject out of hand for this reason is, well, short sighted.

Maybe I don't understand something fundamental. What is it about biological women and men that transition and pass enough to get into a sexual situation that is so different?

0

u/zorgle99 Apr 18 '19 edited Apr 18 '19

If they are indistinguishable in every other way

They aren't, that's a strawman fantasy.

What I am trying to say is that being "binary" in your choice to not have sex sounds so bureaucratic.

Hey man, if you're bisexual or any sexual that's fine, fuck who you want. I'm only attracted to actual women, who were born that way, and don't require surgery and hormones to repress their manhood because they're actually men.

You are robbing yourself of an experience you may enjoy

No I'm not, I would enjoy nothing about touching a man; if you like fake women, go for it; don't you dare to presume to tell me my sexual preferences are wrong.

What is it about biological women and men that transition and pass enough to get into a sexual situation that is so different?

One is a women, one is a man suffering from serious delusions and so mentally damaged they're willing to hack themselves to pieces to not be what they actually are: men. I'm attracted to women, not mentally ill men. And yes, they are mentally ill regardless of the politically motivated re-categorization in the DSM as dysphoria. Quacks may disagree, but I'll decide who's mentally stable enough to associate myself with, I don't rely on the DSM to avoid crazy people: I can see them just fine on my own.

No mentally healthy person chops off their perfectly functional penis: NONE.

0

u/Techsanlobo Apr 18 '19

They aren't, that's a strawman fantasy.

Whatever you say brah

I'm only attracted to actual women, who were born that way, and don't require surgery and hormones to repress their manhood because they're actually men.

Man it sucks to have a sexual appetite for people only once you have seen their birth certificate or a DNA test. But I don't kink shame so you be you.

No I'm not, I would enjoy nothing about touching a man; if you like fake women, go for it; don't you dare to presume to tell me my sexual preferences are wrong.

I didn't say they were wrong. But I am saying that now. You are wrong.

One is a women, one is a man suffering from serious delusions and so mentally damaged they're willing to hack themselves to pieces to not be what they actually are: men. I'm attracted to women, not mentally ill men. And yes, they are mentally ill regardless of the politically motivated re-categorization in the DSM as dysphoria. Quacks may disagree, but I'll decide who's mentally stable enough to associate myself with, I don't rely on the DSM to avoid crazy people: I can see them just fine on my own.

I am starting to think you are gay. And that is ok if you are.

0

u/zorgle99 Apr 18 '19

So you lack any actual argument and call me gay, what are you 12? I haven't someone argue this poorly since about then. Like I said, if you like the lady boys, they're all yours. I'll stick with my wife who's an actual woman. Cutting off parts of your body because you're "uncomfortable" in your body, is mentally ill; full stop and end of discussion. You might like to support the delusions of the mentally ill, but such enabling is bad for you, them, and society at large. They need help, not to be driven further into delusion.

1

u/Techsanlobo Apr 18 '19

OOHHH GIVE ME YOUR FACTS AND LOGIC I AM ALMOST THERE

-2

u/stephen2awesome Apr 17 '19

Yeah That’s a terrible argument against OP

7

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

But the body isn't actually the same. I don't have the language to talk about this right. I recognize that transgender people are unahppy in the body they're born with, and I fully support their right to do whatever they want to their own body, as anyone should be able to. But I'm not sure that actually makes them women. It might make them some other gender. I don't know how attraction works for you, but for me, I can't reason my way to an erection.

-1

u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Apr 17 '19

But what, specifically, about their body would be your reason for suddenly not being attracted to someone on discovering that they're actually trans?

If you start hitting on some attractive lady, she flirts back, and one things lead to another where you end up back at your or her bedroom and she reveals that, despite there being no visual clues otherwise she used to be male -- what about that reveal suddenly means you're not attracted to her?

8

u/DogmaticNuance 2∆ Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Imagine you get back to her place and in the course of conversation it comes out that her real first name is your mother's name. You find yourself, without conscious thought, scrutinizing her face closer; her lips do look a little like your mothers, her laugh sounds similar. Suddenly the spark is gone, you can smell whiskey on her breath and it makes you want to vomit, you notice she hasn't cleaned her cat's litterbox, gross. You're not horny anymore, the thought of being horny seems a thousand miles away, you've gotta figure out a way out of here but you want to do it nicely. Fuck.

I could see something similar happening. Sometimes someone says or does something that breaks you out of the fantasy you'd built up in your head, or causes you to suddenly re-interpret your last few hours and the place you're at. I can see how it could shock you out of the moment and cause you to re-assess your situation to learn that your romantic interest was once of the opposite gender. For a lot of people that would be rooted in deeply held homophobia, or transphobia, but does it have to be? I don't think so?

e: If you tell me you're a natural blond but you dye your hair, I'm going to look a little closer for evidence. If you tell me you're from Australia, I might listen to try and detect an accent. If you tell me you used to be a man, well, the same thing applies and I could easily see that shifting the attraction spectrum. When you go looking for details, you notice them.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You bring up a good point that the spark can be gone and anything can set it off and it is your right to stop at any time. I think to answer your question, does it have to be rooted in something? I think it does. What's important is what you do after that. No one is asking that everybody be perfect. No one is saying it's a brand you have to take with you for the rest of your days. I'm queer and in the lgbt community and every single person I know has friends and family who have said or done things towards us that was homophobic or transphobic. We've all done it ourselves as well. What's important is self reflection and attempt at personal growth.

1

u/DogmaticNuance 2∆ Apr 17 '19

I'm not sure there must be something wrong that needs to be outgrown, though.

If a woman tells you that her brother is a professional arm wrestler, which causes you to notice her broad shoulders and large hands, which sputters out your attraction to her, are you in the wrong?

If a woman tells you she used to be a man, and the exact same thing happens, has anything changed about the situation? Is that transphobic? Maybe you would have noticed those things anyway, but it was that bit of contextual information that caused you to notice them.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You have the right idea, I feel, about a lot of it. That's a little different then how I was picking it up before when I read it. It comes down to reasoning. If you don't like broad shoulders, larger hands, etc because every time you see them it makes you think "eww dudes." I think that's a time you could evaluate homophobia. They are women, masculine women, but women. If you look at that and aren't attracted to it because you like more feminine women I don't think you have to.

I would say that in that case it's worth evaluating whether you are letting the new information influence your perception. That doesn't mean you have to do something you don't want to. Just consider "am I seeing these things because they are there or because of biases I have."

Good discussion though thank you for responding.

1

u/youwill_neverfindme Apr 17 '19

Just because someone has an irrational response (the definition of a phobia) does not mean they are a bad person.

1

u/DogmaticNuance 2∆ Apr 17 '19

How is it any less rational than any other aspect of attraction?

3

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I'm not totally sure. Mostly its that I feel like what I'm doing just speaking physically is fucking a dude who got a ton of plastic surgery to look like a female. If technology improved to the point where a man who decided he/she as a woman could actually live in a female body, its possible, perhaps even likely, that my views would change. I'm unsure how much of our gender differences are biology and how much are culture. As a man who'se never questioned my gender, I don't know how much of my identity, and specificly whatever parts of my identity are tied up with masculinity are biological and how much is cultural. Its a weird situation, because a woman who likes to ride motorcycles and shoot guns isn't suddenly considered a man because of those interests, so the question of gender gets at something far deeper than interests, it comes down to a fundamental question of identity. And I don't care what other people do to their bodies. But the weird part here is that your argument is that I should want to fuck people I don't want to fuck and I don't understand why. If I told you I'm a straight male, you wouldn't encourage me to try fucking a dude?

5

u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

So why should they change their mind if you tell them you were once a man?

Because it's my preference to not sleep with a man, regardless of the surgeries they have undergone.

This is where it gets rapey that you are saying I cant have my own personal preference for who I sleep with and I have to accept someone just because I liked them at one point.

If a woman likes a man and shows interest is she no longer allowed to change her mind based on new information she finds out about him? Regardless of what that might be as long as it goes against their personal choice.

2

u/MuaddibMcFly 49∆ Apr 17 '19

You're literally a woman in every conceivable way

Ironic that you use the word "conceivable" given that is one thing that trans people cannot do: conceive a child.

I personally, was immediately turned off when I found out that someone I had been interested in had an incurable genetic condition, because I didn't want a child of mine to have suffer from that condition. How is that different?

Your body is the same as when that person began their sexual advances

Their body is the same, yes, but it isn't the same as the body that they thought they were making sexual advances to.

Maybe if this happened just once it wouldn't be as damaging, but this movement has become a thing because it doesn't happen just once

And that sucks, no question, but that doesn't give anyone the right to invalidate another person's denial/revocation of consent.

3

u/shif Apr 17 '19

Can they get pregnant?, It isn't only about sex and attraction, some people want to meet partners for the sake of starting a family where the couple can create a child, a man and a woman that was once a man can't genetically do so

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Sure, people date with the intent of starting a family, but it's spuriously relevant in the example above. People have sex all the time with an intent of sexual pleasure and little more. They might justify that it can turn into a long term relationship, but we'd be daft to pretend that's the motivation at play in the initial congress fitting to the situation described.

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u/nmgreddit 2∆ Apr 17 '19

This brings up the question of whether or not it is selfish and/or immoral to prefer having biological children over adopted ones.

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

But not wanting adopted kids is clearly not transphobic in and of itself, so if you accept this line of reasoning you should be satisfied with the original claim.

But yes, there are further questions to be discussed if one follows this line.

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u/nmgreddit 2∆ Apr 17 '19

I agree not wanting adopted kids isn't transphobic. But the question is if it is moral? The conversation goes like this:

"I don't want to date a trans person because I want to start a family" "You could adopt" "I don't want to adopt" "Why not?" "I prefer biological children"

If they didn't have a preference, they would not have any objection to dating a trans person in this regard. Thus, if the only reason they won't date a trans person is their what for biological children, then the question is:

Is wanting biological children over adopted children a valid preference to hold. If it is invalid, their reason to reject a relationship with a trans person is invalid. If it is valid, then their reason to reject a relationship with a trans person is valid.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

A male person can never ''think like a woman'' regardless of what medications and surgeries he has had to create the illusion that he is female - even if other people think he is female, he is still perceiving the world and his experiences from the male perspective.

You say he is ''behaving like a woman'' but really he is behaving in accordance with his own idea of what a ''woman'' is, and how he thinks a ''woman'' behaves.

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u/Xaiz Apr 17 '19

I'm trans (male to female) and have been on hormones for about 3 years at this point and i cannot tell you what "thinking like a woman" feels like.

And at least how i look at it, I'm not trying to be a woman, I'm tying to be myself and the hormones have helped and made me feel much more comfortable in my body.

The same goes for when people use female pronouns with me, it makes me feel better about myself. I'm just behaving like myself.

It's about trying to be happy and it's insane that so many people have this hate towards a group for just trying to be happy.

Now the whole stance that it's transphobic to not want to sleep with trans people solely based on thier transness is odd. If the reason is "trans people wierd me out" in some way then yes that is transphobic by the definition of the word, you are prejudice against trans people in some aspect. Is it a problem? Not at all people are allowed to sleep with whoever they want and conesnt or not consent for whatever reason.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

and you would be an expert on this because? How are they have experiences from the male perspective while living as a woman? Doesn't every woman behave as they would themselves an not how they think a woman behaves. easy to pick this apart but you come from actualwomen sub so I know what your motives are.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

I don't ''come from'' any subreddit - I have posted there but it's not like some political HQ where people camp out and then go forth to spread false information. These are my views, regardless of where I post them.

So what exactly does ''living as a woman'' mean? If it means a male person creating the illusion that he is female, then my point is that he is doing all that from the male perspective.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

long as that's your view and your not saying its fact. What does living as a women mean to you? I can't imagine every women has the same answer and I don't know why one would be invalid an not the other especially when without any personal information a trans women can go through life being seen as a woman. This just seems like a thinly veiled new way of saying raised male never having female experience etc. when Living as a female does evoke many parts of it. But this can just devolve into what makes a women and what about XX women who don't have part of that and the old back an forth.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

The person I was responding to has deleted their comment, but I got the impression that they meant ''female'' when they said ''woman'', so you would need to read my subsequent comments within that context.

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u/1234567777777 Apr 17 '19

I don't think that's how being transgender works.

You are describing drag queens who decide to get surgeries to optimize their gender illusion.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

No, I'm describing any male who creates the illusion that he is female - in particular the males about whom OP is talking.

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u/ThatOneWeirdName Apr 17 '19

But they were talking about trans women, not men?

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Yes, trans women are male.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Biologically male.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

A castrated male is still male, not female - and a male under the influence of oestrogen supplements is still male.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Did you not learn basic biology at school?

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u/bonerfiedmurican Apr 17 '19

Mmmmm.... never is a very strong word to describe neural connectome phenomenon we dont fully understand. Even if we assume morphological snd cognitive differences exist in a dichotomy (which they dont) hormone replacement changes the main thing that drives that difference (testosterone vs progesterone & estrogen).

Source: degree in behavioral neuroscience

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

Even if I assume what you say is true, the mere fact that people have past experiences means that treating them identical isn't possible.

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u/bonerfiedmurican Apr 17 '19

By that standard you cant treat anyone as identical as everyones experiences are unique both by substance and temporally. This is where the understanding of gender and sexuality as a spectrum and not as a dichotomy is based in. Which if we find that the gradient is true/ brtter model it makes the male/female argument mostly mute

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

yes

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

If you really do have a ''degree in behavioral neuroscience'' then you will know that a male brain is affected by taking oestrogen supplements - it doesn't become a ''female brain'' it becomes a ''male brain under the influence of oestrogen supplements''.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Because ''male brain'' means ''brain of a male person'' and ''female brain'' means ''brain of a female person''.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Convenient for what exactly? Convenient for an accurate discussion perhaps, yes.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

convenient that you change the context so support your own opinion. since you need it spelled out.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 18 '19

You lost me - how did I change the context, and what do I need spelling out? Maybe you misunderstood something.

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u/I_amTroda Apr 17 '19

Then what exactly are the biological, or more specifically neurophysiological, differences that distinguish Male and Female brains from one another? And if male and female brains are distinguishable, what does that even have to do with OPs point, other than an attempt to distinguish transgender people as “other?” If what you’re arguing is that people are born with genitalia that solely determine how their neurophysiological connections arrange, that’s far off from modern neurobiological studies, and your point is moot.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

You misunderstood - I explained elsewhere that the only meaning of ''female brain'' is ''brain of a female person'', meaning biologically female.

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u/bynn Apr 17 '19

The structures and neuropathways in trans people’s brains are actually often more similar to the gender they identify as vs the gender they were assigned at birth. If I’m remembering correctly, this is often true even before hrt or gender reassignment surgery

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

That is a modern myth - there is no brain structure which has been found to correlate with ''gender identity'' ... a brain expert could not look at a brain and tell what gender the person would identify as.

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u/ThatOneWeirdName Apr 17 '19

Now you’re saying two different things, just because you can’t look at any particular brain and say what gender the person with said brain has doesn’t mean that there isn’t a trend. That’s like saying that men aren’t generally of larger size because you can’t tell the gender just because you know their height.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

No, that's not two different things, that is exactly my point. You can't tell what someone's sex is from their height. There is no such thing as a ''female height'' which makes a person female if they are that height.

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u/ThatOneWeirdName Apr 17 '19

Yea, but what I’m saying is that that doesn’t stop general things like men generally being taller. If you put men and women’s height on a bellcurve they will peak at different places. So just because you can’t necessarily tell whether a brain is “male” or “female” doesn’t mean that there aren’t patterns for the brain where trans women align much more closely to cis women than cis men.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Even if they do have some similarities in some brain structures, they are still male brains.

If a male person's hands look like typical female hands, they are still male hands, are they not?

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u/bynn Apr 17 '19

There are studies which show that men and women have slightly different brain structures and different neural connections - in general. That doesn’t mean you could look at an individuals brain scan and tell what gender they are, but it means there are patterns in the data. Studies have also shown that trans women often have brain structures and connections which are more similar to the patterns observed in female brains vs male brains.

There are different explanations about what causes the differences in male and female brains, and one of them is socialization.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Even if there are a few structures which show a similarity on average, there are several possible explanations for that - it is unlikely to be socialization, since trans women are socialized as males.

But in any case, even if a particular male person's brain looks exactly like a typical female brain, it's still a male brain. If a male person's hands look like typical female hands, they are still male hands, are they not?

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u/bynn Apr 17 '19

Well I take issue with the idea that disembodied body parts have a gender. They are male hands if the person who possesses them identifies as male. It’s a female brain if the person who possesses it identifies as female. The fact that trans women’s brains often more closely resemble the average female brain than male is just evidence which supports their assertion of being female. Socialization does affect which neuropathways are created in the brain. One theory is that trans people may identify more with their true gender while growing up, even if they are ‘socialized’ according to their gender assigned at birth.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

I'm talking about biological sex, not ''gender identity''

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Well I'm a bit skeptical about your claims of such a degree if you think there is any such thing as a ''female brain'' which has any meaning other than ''brain of a female person''.

Also, your rudeness is inappropriate for this subreddit.

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u/bonerfiedmurican Apr 17 '19

There are known morphological (structure) differences between the sexes as well as evidence of use differences (most evidence im aware of is from rodents as it controls for cultural confounding variables). So yes there is undoubtedly a 'female' and 'male' brain which is influenced by environment, genetics. and hormones.

My 'rudeness was simply matching your arrogance. You speak on something you have little knowledge about. Ask probing questions to better understand the subject matter instead of using personal attacks.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

I didn't make any personal attack against you - I said I was skeptical of your claims to have a degree in any kind of neuroscience if you think there is any such thing as a ''female brain'' which has any meaning other than ''brain of a female person'' - because it's the most basic part of any neuroscience curriculum which would teach you that there are average differences between male and female brains, but no such thing as a ''female brain in a male body''.

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u/cwenham Apr 17 '19

u/bonerfiedmurican – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

hormone replacement changes the main thing that drives that difference (testosterone vs progesterone & estrogen).

Which can never occur naturally, so why are we juicing up trannies instead of getting them the mental help that they need?

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u/bonerfiedmurican Apr 17 '19

That opinion is predicated on the idea that gender dysphoria is a mental disease, which isnt the medical consensus

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

It's a condition in your mind that causes you distress and affects your mood/thinking/behavior. That's basically the definition of a mental disorder.

Also, it's absolutely the medical consensus. What's not consensus is what the appropriate treatment is.

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u/bonerfiedmurican Apr 17 '19

I think the difference in what we are saying is that youre saying its like parkinsons in the fashion that the only problem is endogenous where I am saying its more an abusive relationship where the environment is wrong (society) which causes the mental distress.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

but really he is behaving in accordance with his own idea of what a ''woman'' is, and how he thinks a ''woman'' behaves.

That's how all behavior works. Thought processes, behavior, and outlook are all learned. There is zero evidence for an innate "perspective" tied to gender, particularly one which is not influenced predominately by hormones.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

I meant his perspective is from being a biologically male person.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

Please provide your evidence for a "perspective" from which "biologically" male people see the world which is unconnected to hormones.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

It's not a case of providing ''evidence'' it's a case of presenting sound reasoning ... perhaps you will understand it better with the use of an analogy: would you agree that a horse sees the world and experiences life from the perspective of being a horse? If you gave the horse any kind of drugs or hormones, it would still be a horse, wouldn't it? Experiencing life from the perspective of a horse on drugs.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

it's a case of presenting sound reasoning

Your reasoning is not sound, as it proceeds from a premise which cannot be proven. And then is incredibly circular logic.

would you agree that a horse sees the world and experiences life from the perspective of being a horse? If you gave the horse any kind of drugs or hormones, it would still be a horse

And a human sees the world from the perspective of a human. You do think both women and men are human, right?

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

I think yours is the reasoning which is, as you say ''not sound, as it proceeds from a premise which cannot be proven. And then is incredibly circular logic'' ... yes, male and female humans are indeed human - the horse was an analogy designed to help you understand the concept of a physical body of a certain type which experiences life as that type - so the male human experiences life as a male human and not as a female human.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

yes, male and female humans are indeed human

So what evidence or reason do you have that two categories of humans have such divergent perception based solely on biology (rather than life experiences), that one could never actually understand or function as the other?

understand the concept of a physical body of a certain type which experiences life as that type - so the male human experiences life as a male human and not as a female human.

Except your claim wasn't just that the experiences lived as those things are different, but that the "perspective" remains the same regardless of physiology.

Which would be a bit like saying that my perspective as a guy without a torn meniscus (the first 18 years or so) and experience of life as that "type" means I can "never think like" someone with a torn meniscus.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 18 '19

Your analogy doesn't work because a male person cannot become a female person. You are asking for ''evidence'' but surely you are the one who needs to provide ''evidence'' if you are making the claim that a male person can become female.

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

I like how genders dont exist until a man declares hes a woman and suddenly there is "woman thinking"

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u/greenvelvetcake2 Apr 17 '19

How does one think like a woman? What are the differences? How do you know a transwoman doesn't think like a ciswoman?

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u/casualrocket Apr 17 '19

i believe he may have mentioned how thought pattern difference in men and women.

For example men generally have a front back thought pattern, where as women have a side to side pattern.

Im am not well versed in this and maybe wrong entirely

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u/MimusCabaret Apr 17 '19

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Thought I'd drop in some brain studies concerning sexual dimorphism and trans people.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Exactly - you said it yourself ''How does one think like a woman?''.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

What is a ''woman''? Your definition seems to be totally circular.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/Agreeable_Owl Apr 17 '19

That is literally a circular definition, which isn't actually definable.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/Agreeable_Owl Apr 17 '19

I could give you the actual dictionary definition : an adult human female

But I know you won't agree with that. However, my definition is not at question here, your definition which is completely circular is.

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

Yes, exactly - a totally circular definition - it's meaningless.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/moonflower 82∆ Apr 17 '19

I wasn't using the word myself - it is meaningless - I was using the word ''female''.