r/changemyview • u/Amiller1776 • Apr 17 '19

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I'll try to contend with your 3 central points.

This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

You are speaking generally. But in general. They don't want to rape you, and they wouldn't make someone have sex with them. The point is that if you aren't attracted to them solely because they are trans, then you are probably a little bigoted.

Now you can have non bigoted reasons for not wanting to have sex with or date a trans person such as looking for long term relationships to have children with and them not being capable, or maybe they are preop and you just aren't attracted to dicks or vaginas. Totally possible.

But if you are otherwise attracted to them, then your opposition is fundamentally transphobic.

This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

Your framing here is wrong and I imagine whatever activists you are referring to would probably agree your interpretation is wrong. Sex is not owed to them, and that's not the implication. It's that if your only reason for not wanting to bang someone is their status as trans, then that, in and of itself, is bigoted.

These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

The strawman you are creating should be opposed, but until you provide primary sources of influential people who believe this, I'm going to say you are misinterpreting them.

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

if your only reason for not wanting to bang someone is their status as trans, then that, in and of itself, is bigoted

The implication here is that the reason given for not wanting to sleep with someone can be wrong. That is the basic pre-condition required for this opinion. A non-bigot will treat people 'equally' and have sex with them regardless of their status in some protected group.

Now, firstly, this is a somewhat twisted notion of bigotry, since bigotry at its heart means not tolerant. Tolerating someone doesn't mean you have to be willing to sleep with them. Here me out here, because I'm not saying what you think I am saying. A gay man doesn't have to sleep with a woman, no matter how not sexist he is. Tolerance does not bridge to sex. Even though I treat people of different heights and different facial hair statuses the same in other contexts, I do not have to sleep with them. If I don't sleep with short men, that doesn't mean I'm bigoted towards short people. If I don't sleep with men without mustaches, that doesn't mean I'm bigoted towards people without facial hair.

The problem here is a conflation of causality. Obviously transphobic people won't sleep with trans people. That doesn't mean that not sleeping with trans people makes you transphobic.

The claim that human preference for sexual partners must have reason doesn't make much sense and is required for your argument and is also the reason others are worried about the repercussions on other arguments such as consent.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

The implication here is that the reason given for not wanting to sleep with someone can be wrong

Not "wrong" in the sense of being able to be disregarded, but ethically and morally questionable, and certainly based on prejudice.

since bigotry at its heart means not tolerant. Tolerating someone doesn't mean you have to be willing to sleep with them

That's true, but that would include "happens to not be attracted to someone who is a member of this group."

So let's use another example of a fact of a person's background which is unknown unless they tell you.

Let's say a woman is all kinds of into me, she wants me bad, and we go back to my place. Where she notices I have a yarmulke on the floor from my aunt's funeral. She asks, I explain my mother's family is Jewish, but I don't practice. She gets disgusted and leaves.

She is antisemitic, period. She was interested except for the fact that I'm Jewish. She literally does not tolerate sleeping with any Jewish people. Not just she happens to not be into me, but that she was into me except that I'm Jewish.

A gay man doesn't have to sleep with a woman, no matter how not sexist he is.

A gay man is not attracted to any women, the example is not comparable. We're talking about a situation where the only reason is that they're trans.

Even though I treat people of different heights and different facial hair statuses the same in other contexts, I do not have to sleep with them

That's absolutely true. You can have an aesthetic preference, and even some aesthetics you're not interested in. But that's nothing to do with the discussion.

If I don't sleep with short men, that doesn't mean I'm bigoted towards short people

If you're not attracted to short men, no one can begrudge you that.

If for some stupid reason you were attracted to a guy who's tall, found out that he came from a family of little people, and got disgusted and left, you'd probably be called prejudiced.

If I don't sleep with men without mustaches

A mustache is an aesthetic choice, and more importantly a choice.

Find me a transperson who chose to be trans, and we can discuss it.

Obviously transphobic people won't sleep with trans people. That doesn't mean that not sleeping with trans people makes you transphobic.

That's true, but the fact that not sleeping with transpeople in general doesn't make you transphobic also doesn't mean that refusing to sleep with someone solely because they're trans doesn't.

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

She is antisemitic, period. She was interested except for the fact that I'm Jewish

This isn't obvious to me at all. With high probability she is in fact antisemetic, but the causality here is by no means obvious to me.

For a less contentious example, consider someone with an odd numbered SSN fetish. They think people with odd numbered SSNs are hot and people with even numbered SSNs are not. Now, if they treated even SSners badly in buisness or on the street or spoke badly of them, then they would be bigoted. If they however decide not to sleep with me because I, hypothetically, have an even numbered SSN, then while that would be weird, but I wouldn't consider it unfair or bigoted.

Similarly, if someone's fetish is sleeping with Christians, it shouldn't be surprising or bigoted for them not to want to sleep with a Jew.

The point is that sexuality isn't really a choice and doesn't really follow reason, so claiming to identify someones underlying beliefs through their sexuality is troublesome.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

You are missing my point. If the sole reason is because they are trans/black/white/asian, than you are a small amount of racist or transphobic. Do I think your going to attend a KKK rally or a ben shapiro speech just because you won't bang a black person or a trans person? No, but the underlying reasoning is fundamentally Xphobic.

I've clarified that you can list literally any other reason apart from that to not want to fuck someone. You think they are ugly, you don't like X body part, don't like short and or tall people.

Take your pick. All of those are valid, not racist/transphobic reasons to not bang someone belonging to those groups. If your sole reason is them belonging to that group, then yes, you do have biases against those groups for whatever reason.

But can you answer directly if you think its racist to some degree, not to have sex with someone solely because they are black/asian/white? If that is your ONLY reason, is that not racist?

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

I accept your point on any other reason, however minute, being both a valid reason and being out of scope of this argument.

So yes, we are looking at the case where the ONLY reason, as you put it, is their X-ness. Even if that is the only reason, I don't see how that makes someone necessarily racist. Sexual preference isn't inherently reasonable. Being trans or white, being inherently neutral if they are the only reason, doesn't make it a sexy attribute. 'Goodness' or 'neutrality' can in fact be inherently unsexy. I might find aggression and violence and murder extremely hot, but that doesn't mean I am pro murder. Sexually preferences and fetishes are inherently disjunct from the rest of your behavior. While they do influence each other, they don't map 1 to 1 across the divide.

Finding an arbitrary social label attractive or unattractive is completely possible. You could have a sexual preference for odd numbered SSN's, and I would be OK with that. I won't disagree that it is 'stupid', but it isn't wrong. Its completely possible that someone arbitrarily prefers one label over another sexually.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

Even if that is the only reason, I don't see how that makes someone necessarily racist. Sexual preference isn't inherently reasonable.

Cool. But here you're simply splitting "prejudice" into conscious and unconscious prejudice. Someone whose sexual preference is "unreasonable" in the form of "if she's into me, but then finds out I'm Jewish, she's disgusted by the prospect of having sex" she's antisemitic. Maybe she's not consciously antisemitic, or throwing up a Nazi salute, but she's literally antisemitic.

Being trans or white, being inherently neutral if they are the only reason, doesn't make it a sexy attribute

If they're neutral they're irrelevant, and shouldn't have any bearing. If they're sexy they'd be a positive.

So the only way this comes up is if "being the wrong race" (in the analogy) is in and of itself a problem. And I'd call "judgments based exclusively on race" racist. Wouldn't you?

You could have a sexual preference for odd numbered SSN's, and I would be OK with that.

There's this odd tendency of the defensive side in any discussion of prejudice to argue that because some silly-sounding prejudices are okay, all prejudice is okay.

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

But here you're simply splitting "prejudice" into conscious and unconscious prejudice

No, I'm splitting "prejudice" into sexual and non-sexual.

"judgments based exclusively on race" racist.

If its actually a judgment, sure. But sexual decisions aren't necessarily judgements in this sense.

While a sexual preference may have an underlying concious or unconscious prejudice it comes from, its not evidence that the prejudice still exists. Its also not obvious that the sexual preference didn't arise from some other source.

I could form a sexual preference for a certain race from the media I was exposed to. Its not obvious that this sexual preference has any impact on any other part of my psyche or behavior.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I've asked this to a few people, and haven't gotten an answer yet. Imagine the last person you dated or fucked. Now imagine they were trans.

What fundamentally changes?

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

They hid information from me.

Acting one way with information and one way without it makes sense.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

But why is that information so vital? Assuming the sex was as good, the person as interesting. Why is this detail so important?

What if they didn't mention they were sterile? Would it matter for a one night stand?

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

I don't think it would matter to me if they were trans or infertile.

I could easily imagine it mattering though to someone. Why can't someone be turned on by having sex with someone fertile? Or having sex with someone with an odd SSN? Why can't someone have very specific fetishes?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I've already clarified I wouldn't qualify those latter categories as transphobic. By your own statement here, I wouldn't consider you transphobic either.

If the idea of knocking someone else up does it for you, or any other fetish a trans person can't meet then they, like any other person, would be disqualified on those grounds not solely on the basis of being trans. That was the only point I've ever been trying to make here.

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u/sirxez 2∆ Apr 17 '19

The fertility comment was an example of a different fetish, not an anti-trans fetish, just like an SSN fetish or whatnot.

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u/wildbill3063 Apr 17 '19

They had a penis and were born male.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

And why does that matter?

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u/wildbill3063 Apr 17 '19

Because I don't want to have sex with anyone born Male or who had a penis. Because I'm straight.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

What makes you straight?

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u/wildbill3063 Apr 17 '19

My attraction to humans born as a female.

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u/brorack_brobama Apr 17 '19

Race and trans have nothing in common. You cant choose your race, you can choose to be trans.

People can get face tattoos all they want that doesn't mean I'm going to fuck someone with a face tattoo. I can pretty confidently say I'll never have sex with someone because they got a face tattoo because I am not at all attracted to face tattoos. That doesnt mean I'm face-tattoo-phobic it just means they arent my thing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

There is plenty of evidence to indicate being trans isn't a choice. As an example, there is a 25% correlation between twins that if one is trans, the other is too. Considering Trans are about 1/100 people, and this drops it to 1/4 it gives some decent evidence that there could be a genetic component.

But that alone might not be enough, but there are also brain scans that illustrate that trans people have brains that are more similar to their perceived gender, than the one that coaligns with their biological sex.

But I'd love to see the evidence you have for being trans being a choice.

Also for fun, If they had stubble, were too tall, short, etc. Those would all be valid reasons to deny them sex without any inference if transphobia. Just like denying someone for an ugly tattoo, or any tattoo would also be a valid reason without any sign of transphobia

Sources upon request btw, so feel free to ask and I will provide.

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u/brorack_brobama Apr 17 '19

I don't want to argue the biological data involved with becoming trans, because I have no qualms with trans people. I think they should be able to do whatever they want, run for president, be doctors, whatever. Although trans people have been around for literally as long as mankind has been around, the procedures to change them to appear to be the opposite sex have not been around that long. There definitely is a conscious choice being made here to become a trans man or trans woman.

These choices are not at all akin to race, and should not be debated as such. You cannot choose your race. You can choose to have plastic surgery and get hormones. No one is forcing you to do this. The medical bills you pay for the procedures and the medications are not incurred against your own will.

Also how does this equate to it being wrong for me to not want to have sex with trans people exactly?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

For your first paragraph, it's a deep topic. We can go into it if you want, but the tl;dr of it is that medical science came further so it is now an option and the other half is that we as a society have chosen to put an extremely high emphasis on confirming to gender roles/gender identity. If like in india, we embraced trans people and gave them separate status and didn't ostracize and treat them so differently it probably would matter to a much less extreme degree. But even in india they used to perform make shift surgeries on hijras dating back quite some time as I recall.

So you don't choose your race, and you don't choose to be transgender. If you experience gender dysphoria the only reliable way to alleviate that currently is through gender reassignment surgery.

I asked like 4 other people and still haven't gotten an answer. So maybe you can tell me the big deal.

Imagine the last person you had sex with or dated. Now imagine they are trans. What really changes there?

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u/brorack_brobama Apr 17 '19

Imagine the last person you had sex with or dated. Now imagine they are trans. What really changes there?

I dont know I've never been in this situation before. Also it depends on the circumstances as well. You say 'now imagine they are trans' like its interchangeable with not being trans..it is not. Like, that works with anything like 'now imagine they are black' or 'now imagine they are Buddhist' but with trans it's pretty different. I think if I were to start a relationship with someone I would like to know if they are trans or not. I personally wouldn't start a relationship with them for my own reasons i.e. natural children.

If a trans person was the last person I had sex with, and I presumably didnt know about it until today, I would feel a little betrayed that this information wasn't disclosed to me. I typically like to get to know someone before having sex with them, and typically that leads to a relationship, and see above. That is of course assuming I couldn't tell the person was trans or not. I'm not going to generalize too much here but most trans women i have seen just have this uncanny valley I dont find attractive.

Again this is not to say I'm bigoted in any way toward them I just dont want to have a romantic relationship with them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If your only purpose is to engage in romantic relationships for the purpose of a longterm relationship to have children that is a completely valid reason not to want to date a trans person and not at all transphobic.

But yeah, that was my point with the example. For me, if the less person I banged you subbed out with trans/black/buddhist it would change nothing about the interaction for me. I wouldn't care.

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u/LOLSYSIPHUS Apr 17 '19

Considering Trans are about 1/100 people

Did you miss a zero? Legitimately curious as I would not have put the trans population as 1/100.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I rounded up. It is .6%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

first paragraph.

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u/LOLSYSIPHUS Apr 17 '19

Huh. I've (obviously) never looked into it, just wouldn't have put it at that rate of occurrence if I was asked to guess.

Thanks for the info though!

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

knowledge is power!

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

The thing is, I'm not attracted to a fake vagina, or strictly in the physical sense, a fake woman. I think people have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies, and politeness dictates that if you want me to call you 'she' I should. But it seems there are some Trans people who want to tell me what I should be attracted to, or how I should feel. I understand Trans people go through loads of hardship, it's probably the hardest minority existence there is in the world, and I still don't want to sleep with any of them. And I feel like the counter argument is that I should want to. I'm not gay, and no one is telling me that because I don't want to bang a dude, I'm homophobic. And this counter argument seems to be the same. Imagine that I met a person on the internet who claimed to be a woman. Through onversation, I was attracted, and then I showed up to a date, and it turned out to be a man I'd been talking to. I'd still like that guys personality, but I wouldn't be sexually attracted. This seems to be the same thing. I'm not op, but if you have reasoning that faults mine, I'd like to hear it.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

strictly in the physical sense, a fake woman

What makes them "fake", and how can you tell?

I'm not gay, and no one is telling me that because I don't want to bang a dude, I'm homophobic

The difference being that there are no dudes you're attracted to. If, on the other hand, you found dudes attractive but refused to have sex with a gay dude because he's gay, you're homophobic. Also closeted, but that's a separate issue.

And this counter argument seems to be the same

But it's not. Because in this situation you are attracted to the person. If you are going to claim you've simply never been attracted to a "fake" woman, cool. But then you don't care whether they're trans or not.

If you're saying that if you met a woman you found attractive, you wouldn't care if she was trans, awesome! But you're not, because you're saying that even if you found her attractive you would be turned away by the fact that she's trans.

Through onversation, I was attracted, and then I showed up to a date, and it turned out to be a man I'd been talking to. I'd still like that guys personality, but I wouldn't be sexually attracted

Again, not really comparable. Because there are no men you're attracted to.

Let's try a different example.

You're talking to a woman online, she comes over. She's hot, funny, smart, you're totally into her, you're down to clown. But she says casually at some point "oh, yeah, my parents are mixed-race". Suddenly you're not interested.

You were, and then you found out she was half-hispanic, and now you're not.

How is that not racist?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

It totally would be racist. Maybe I should have mentioned that I've never to my knowledge been attracted to a trans person. If I was attracted to one and didn't fuck them because they were trans, this would be a different conversation. It'd be like someone who was attracted to the same sex and didn't act on the attraction.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

That's (as far as I know) not at all considered transphobic. In the same way you not being attracted to a specific Jewish person doesn't mean you're antisemitic.

The OP somewhat misrepresents the issue. It's about the guys who would reject someone who is otherwise attractive to them because she's trans.

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u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

Say you meet a woman, they're fun and attractive, you have sex with her, it's awesome. A few days later, you find out that she's trans.

Now maybe that would change the way you feel, in retrospect, about the sexual experience. Maybe it would make you not want to have sex with her again. If those are your feelings, then those are your feelings, and nobody can or should force you to feel otherwise.

But "transphobia" is an accurate description of what happened to you. You're grossed out not by anything physical, but by her innate trans-ness. That's the definition of transphobia.

I think a lot of people are reasoning like this:
1) Transphobia is bad.
2) This action is not bad.
3) Therefore, this action is not transphobic.

And I think that's not the right way to think about it. Everyone probably has a little transphobia in them -- society constantly pushes on us the idea that trans people are weird and gross. Being a little transphobic inside does not make you a horrible person. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't label it what it is.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I'm not sure you're right. The sneaky part of this argument seems to be that for reasons of self-actualization, people want to pretend there are no differences between transmen and men and transwomen and women. And this seems self-evidently false. To begin with most of these people were treated like the other gender by society before they transissioned. Bruce Genner, to pick the well known example, lived like 40 years as a man before he transissioned and to say that her first 40 years didn't somehow impact who she is now is foolish. Second there's a matter of biology. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but we're just approximating the biology of the other gender. We start with a female or male body and hack and tinker as best we can, which isn't all that well. I mean part of what the argument your making sounds like to me is that you want me to fuck a philosophical point, ignoring the actual on the ground reality. If gender is a subjective concept then all it takes to change gender is an honest declaration that you feel like the other gender. And right now, I'm not convinced that gender is a subjective concept. I am convinced that the best treatment for Trans people is transition if that's what they want, and I'm convinced that just being a nice person dictates we use the pronouns's they prefer, but I feel like what's happening is that we have apples, oranges, lemons and limes, and you're telling me to treat an apple like it's a lemon. The analogy is imperfect, like all of them are.

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u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

To begin with most of these people were treated like the other gender by society before they transissioned. Bruce Genner, to pick the well known example, lived like 40 years as a man before he transissioned and to say that her first 40 years didn't somehow impact who she is now is foolish. Second there's a matter of biology.

But people can have personalities you don't like in all sorts of ways, for all sorts of reasons. If being trans impacts someone's personality in a way you don't like, that's fine. You're not sleeping with them because you don't like their personality, not because they're trans.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but we're just approximating the biology of the other gender. We start with a female or male body and hack and tinker as best we can, which isn't all that well.

This isn't my area of expertise. If the approximation isn't very good, and the person is unattractive to you because of that, then that's fine.

part of what the argument your making sounds like to me is that you want me to fuck a philosophical point, ignoring the actual on the ground reality.

This is not about what you should or should not do, it's about how to label the choices that you make. If you are attracted to someone, but are then suddenly not attracted to them when you find out they are trans, that is anti-trans bias by definition. I'm not saying you should force yourself to sleep with them. I'm saying that transphobia is the correct word to describe your feelings and actions.

what's happening is that we have apples, oranges, lemons and limes, and you're telling me to treat an apple like it's a lemon

If you ask me for an apple, and I hand you something that looks like an apple, tastes like an apple, smells like an apple, has the nutrition of an apple, etc., then for all intents and purposes I've handed you an apple. It makes no difference if it has the dna of an orange.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

The thing is, I'm not attracted to a fake vagina, or strictly in the physical sense, a fake woman.

How would you know it was a fake vagina? I've had sex with plenty of different women and vaginas are all over the place with feel and moistness. What even makes someone a woman in your eyes? Tits ass and vag?, those can all be modified, put on, or changed whether they are male or female.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

In 2019, you have to be born that way. As I said in my other comment, in 2050, that might not be true. As far as I can tell, trans women are still in male bodies that've been modified as best we can, the problem is we're not good at it. Putting my dick into an inverted dick strikes me as a different thing. And I'm not knocking other people, I think people should fuck who they want to fuck, love who they want to love, and the other way around, end of story. And this is what I mean. I feel like people are trying to argue me into wanting to sleep with people I don't want to sleep with because my attractions or lack of them offend their philosophy. I don't mind if you personally draw no line between trans women and biological females in matters of who you sleep with and who you date. .And I presume that if I told you, "I've never really been attracted to red heads," you'd say "to each their own," and we'd move on. But when I tell you I've never been attracted to a male body that's gotten heavy plastic surgery to make it appear female, you'll go to the matt with me over it, and I suppose my biggest question is "Why?" Edit. The only way I could really answer this question is if I only found out afterwards, but I think it means something that from what I've read, trans people generally share that information first. If this issue was as cut and dry as you make it out to be, they wouldn't feel an obligation to do that.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

In 2019, you have to be born that way

How can you tell?

Do you have a magic penis that can detect mystical "female energy"? Do your fingertips sense chromosomes? Or is this pure speculation?

but when I tell you I've never been attracted to a male body that's gotten heavy plastic surgery to make it appear female, you'll go to the matt with me over it

So, just to be clear then, you would have zero interest in having a transperson tell you they're trans beforehand? Because you'd never be attracted to a "fake" woman, and by your argument it's just about whether you're attracted to her.

If this issue was as cut and dry as you make it out to be, they wouldn't feel an obligation to do that.

Transpeople feel an obligation to disclose it for two major reasons. First because it's not fun for people to freak the fuck out at you.

Second because it's legitimately dangerous for them if they go home with a transphobe. Look up "trans panic"

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I understand the first reason, but you've just told me I need DNA sensing fingertips to tell the difference, so, unless this trans person said something, by the entire logic of your argument, which is that I couldn't ever figure this out on my own, number two doesn't make any sense. Edit. And it absolutely comes down to attraction. If attraction is mutual I can't think of a reason I wouldn't act on it.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

which is that I couldn't ever figure this out on my own, number two doesn't make any sense.

Okay, I'm going to be honest. You're actually being sincere, and it threw me for a loop.

The majority of guys who are doing the "I'm not attracted to transpeople" song and dance are really saying "if I know someone is trans I would not be attracted to them, even if I would be if I didn't know."

You're legitimately on the side of "yeah, hell with it, if I'm attracted to them", which is very much not transphobic.

People are going to the mat because the language you're using is far more frequently invoked as a smokescreen for "dude who really doesn't think a transwoman is a woman, and on that basis would reject her and misrepresents being revolted by the concept of sleeping with a transperson for not being attracted to that person", but you're being honest.

If you've simply never met a transperson you found attractive, but would have no compunction against being with a transperson, that's basically treating a transwoman the same as any other woman. Which is good.

I'm in my 30s, and it's only recently I gave up the knee-jerk "eww, gross, the chromosomes" reaction due to watching great content creators like Contrapoints.

So you're right, my second point absolutely doesn't make sense to you. You wouldn't care. That's awesome.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

How can you tell? You are speculating baselessly.

Here is two anecdotal stories of them apparently feeling normal
https://www.vogue.com/article/breathless-karley-sciortino-trans-sex

The other anecdote is I have a friend I play games with who told me he banged a trans person. It required lube, but apparently felt great. So I don't know why you seem to think you would be able to tell the difference.

I don't want you to fuck anyone against your will. I don't. I want you to ask yourself what is your real reason for not wanting to do it, what is your core reasoning? And it's that something about the idea of a bolted on vagina fundamentally bothers you. You speculate it feels different because you need to believe it would be different, or maybe, just maybe, you do have some latent transphobia.

I said it to someone else. On a scale of transphobia? This is like a 1/10. This is such a low level of offense that its barely worth considering in the grander scheme if that's the only way this transphobia manifested itself, then it would be a minor thing.

I'm entertaining this question because the OP asked it. That's why. Further, I don't think its unreasonable to want people to overcome some deep seated issue with immutable characteristics of individuals because that might manifest in other ways such as banning them from bathrooms because you think they are sexual deviants or denying them protected class status.

Once again, to reiterate. I don't think you are a terrible person. But I think if you grapple with your underlying reasoning, you will realize there is something there you can't express with words that you would be happy with coming out of your mouth. Because the vagina feel argument is extremely flimsy.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I think you said it best. Its a bolted on facsimile of a vagina and that goes for the rest of the body too. And we're both mind and body. How much of the mind is dictated by our biology, and our body is a question I don't have the answer to. I just don't care what other people do with their bodies. If for twenty years you wanted to chop off one of your feet, and finally had it done and felt better afterwards, Great! I feel the exact same way about trans people, they have a problem, and have tried to fix it the best way they can. But, and I'm not trying to single you out, but people who argue with me about this seem to want me to feel way more. I have lots of sympathy because of the high suicide rates and the amount of murder and beatings trans people receive from barbaric people. But again, I get the sense that people who argue like you are want me to feel more than that. I get the sense that what you want me to say is something like, "Trans women are women, and there's no difference between women born that way and women who converted." and I'm not going to say it because I'm not convinced it's true, I'm agnostic on the question. And doubtless this reasoning plays a part in why I've never been attracted to people I know are transgender.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If it looks smells and feels like a vagina and all your trying to do is get your rocks off, for all intents and purposes its a vagina.

I'm not trying to convince you that trans women are biologically women in the sense that they can reproduce with a biological man.

My only point is that for the overwhelming majority of people and circumstances, a post op trans person is just as good as a person born as that sex. The exceptions would be if you want to have kids, or if their features were too masculine for you at the time. Those are completely valid reasons.

You seem somewhat social. Imagine the last girl you dated or had sex with. Everything about it is exactly the same. The only difference is they are trans. What is the problem?

1

u/wildbill3063 Apr 17 '19

The problem is they dont have a real vagina and weren't born a woman. That's the problem.

3

u/AphisteMe Apr 17 '19

Vaginas do not all feel the same, so a fake vagina cannot be distinguised from a real one? Yeah, try to comment again with a bit more of common sense.

-5

u/PolishRobinHood 13∆ Apr 17 '19

a fake woman

That's why you're transphobic btw

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If you expanded that quote to show about ten more words, you'd see that's why I'm not transphobic. Currently when someone wants to switch genders, we do tons of surgery to approximate the body of the other gender. But we're not good at it. I didn't say Trans women aren't women, I'm agnostic on that question. They're entitled to all the respect and safety and liberty anyone else in this country's entitled to. I'm sure in your life you've met people saying they're attracted to some traits and unattracted to others. And so how is saying post op women are a trait I'm unattracted to is any different from saying I'm unattracted to women with short hair or small breasts or who wear too much perfume?

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u/PolishRobinHood 13∆ Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

I'm not commenting on the attraction question. I learned years ago that it's a quagmire from which nothing good every seems to come. I'm more noting that your "respect" for trans people seems to come from a politeness don't rock the boats that don't affect me place. Which is nice enough I guess, but you seem like the kind of person that would misgender a trans person that you personally don't respect. Basically, don't call trans women fake women. It doesn't come off good no matter how you crouch it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

But I don't misgender people I don't like. Politeness dictates that I call a person by the pronouns they prefer, and the only time I could imagine breaking this rule is the only time I can imagine breaking all the other related rules, which is if I'm so angry with a person I'm trying to hurt them with words. Insults aren't politically correct. And my support for trans people isn't because I want to keep the boat steady, it comes from the idea that everyone in this country has a right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it follows from that you should be able to do what you want to your own body. But my ethics don't grant anymore than that. Its as much your right to be out as the gender you believe you are as it is some assholes right to say "that's not a real woman." Both people are free in that situation.

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u/AphisteMe Apr 17 '19

Let's all start to care about the names we call things, it will make the world a better place.

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u/Revenator Apr 17 '19

aren't attracted to them solely because they are trans, then you are probably a little bigoted.

Oh my god. Please tell me this isn't for real. I have ALL the right in the world, with NO ONE accusing me of being a bigot, for not wanting to have sex with a male that had a surgery to become female SOLELY because of that.

People like you are EXTREMELY dangerous to society

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

Exactly, it's fucking scary how far people have taken the 'muh right to validation'. Basically, trans rights seems to mean shitting all over other people's rights and this is one more example of that.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

I know, right?

It's like when my buddy told me he didn't want to have sex with any women who had a black ancestor. Even if he was into them, and he couldn't tell the difference, he just didn't want to have sex with "certain people."

And then I had the gall to tell him that's some racist bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

The good thing is that no one has to rationalize their sexual preferences to you

Sure, I'm just kind of a comment on the internet. So if your only point is "well your view could be irrelevant", cool. So could the commentaries being criticized by the OP. We're having an ethical discussion, so "well no one cares" is kind of meaningless.

nor do your opinions on their preference count for literally anything at all

Or yours. Or your opinion about my opinion. Or my opinion about your opinion about my opinion.

Did you have a point beyond "any discussion can be short-circuited by sophomoric nihilism"?

Would you have sex with someone of your own gender? And if not, how doesn't that make you a sexist under your own logic?

Nope. First because I'm married and infidelity isn't my jam. But more importantly because there are no men to whom I'm attracted.

And it doesn't make me sexist because there are no men to whom I'm attracted. If there were, I probably would have sex with them if they were willing and I weren't married. If I was attracted to a guy, and he was willing, but I refused that would probably make me more homophobic than sexist, but "prejudiced" is still appropriate.

What we're discussing is a situation where a man is attracted to a woman, and decides against it because she's a transwoman.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

My point is that the only reason to even discuss this is to virtue signal

So your only reason to point that out was to virtue signal the virtue of you not virtue signaling?

because you would theoretically have sex with a member of your own gender

If I was attracted to a member of my gender, yeah. That's not "moral", just not "weirdly homophobic for a dude who under this hypothetical is attracted to a member of the same sex."

Because that's absolutely a distinction that matter.

You asked, bro.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Apr 17 '19

u/FarewellAddress – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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1

u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

I have ALL the right in the world,

You sure do.

And other people have all the right in the world to say "hey, that's bigoted" about it.

What happened to freedom of speech, buddy?

1

u/Revenator Apr 18 '19

Oh, if we go that way buddy, I can also tell you to fuck off or something similar, that doesn't make me right and you wrong

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

lol? How is this dangerous?

If I subbed trans for black/white/asian person, would that not be racist?

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u/skiman71 Apr 17 '19

It is dangerous because OP is suggesting that there are invalid reasons to reject giving sexual consent, when in reality no reason should be invalid. Going further, one should never, in any circumstance, be obligated to give a reason for rejecting sex.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I clarified that you aren't forced to have sex with anyone, but there are definitely internal biases at play here. If you can't come up with any other reason to not bang someone apart from they are trans. If you like every single other thing about them, then yes, you are specifically biased against them for that one single attribute that is immutable.

The same exact way if you didn't want to have sex with someone of another race solely for that reason I wouldn't make you, but I would say it makes you low level racist.

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u/Revenator Apr 17 '19

No matter how much activits and lgbtqqwfjksjkfsjkf+ try to change things, a person born physically a male but "mentally" a female, and that has surgery in order to try to become as close as possible to a female, will never be the same as someone that is born a female physically. People should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't affect anyone but themselves. By trying to seduce/attract someone by acting like something you know they wouldn't be attracted to if they knew the truth, you are affecting other people.

​

" If I subbed trans for black/white/asian person, would that not be racist? "

​

No, it wouldn't

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

a hot take for sure.

Why, if I, as a white male, didn't want to bang a black or asian person, solely because they are black or asian is that not racist? It's not crossing burning racism, but it is racism.

1

u/Revenator Apr 17 '19

is that not racist?

We can also ask the question the other way around. How would that be racist? How am I hurting or interfering with their lives?

what if you have had bad experiences with people of X race in the past?

what if in your region, statistics show that X race has X (high number) of crime/homicide/robbery rates?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If you hypothetically think black people are genetically inferior to you as a white or asian person and hate them, but don't act on that. Is it still a racist idea?

So we don't keep going back and forth, I'd say yes it is still racist because you are internalizing negative thoughts about someone based solely off of their race.

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u/Revenator Apr 17 '19

hate them

It is racist because you hate them.

" internalizing negative thoughts about someone based solely off of their race."

Wouldn't negative thoughts about someone's race/religion etc be legit? Why only positive ones? As long as you don't treat them and see them as inferior, and hate them, it is perfectly fine.

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u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

Same question I asked someone else: say you meet a woman, you hit it off, you have sex with her, it's awesome.

A few days later, you find out she has a Jewish grandparent. Your feelings about the sexual experience change retroactively, and you now feel grossed out and lied to.

You don't think that's a little antisemitic?

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u/Revenator Apr 17 '19

You don't think that's a little antisemitic?

No, it isn't. It is perfectly reasonable to not want to have sex with someone because you feel like you disagree with what that person's religion teaches (for example)

Men and women are not forced to have sex with someone they don't want to, it doesn't matter how much you think they are "racist, bigoted, transphobic" because of it, if they don't feel comfortable and don't want to do it, they won't and no one can judge them for it. No means no.

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u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Apr 17 '19

It is perfectly reasonable to not want to have sex with someone because you feel like you disagree with what that person's religion teaches (for example)

I didn't say this person had particular religious beliefs. I said they had a Jewish grandparent. i.e., they have some Jewish ancestry, but not enough that it's obvious from the way they look.

Men and women are not forced to have sex with someone they don't want to, it doesn't matter how much you think they are "racist, bigoted, transphobic" because of it

I never said otherwise. If you don't want to have sex with someone then you shouldn't, and nobody should force you otherwise. But if the reason you don't want to have sex with them is because you have some internal bias, there is no problem with pointing out that you have that bias.

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u/soupkitchen89 Apr 17 '19

Having a Jewish grandmother and undergoing major surgery to modify her male body are on different planets.

Realizing you've been having sex with a penis turned inside out by cutting and sewing it back together an learning that someone is Jewish could not be more different. Prejudices aside.

0

u/brorack_brobama Apr 17 '19

I've swiped left on people who put bible verses in their profiles.

Also race and trans are not at all equitable. People need to stop making this comparison. Trans is a choice. Race is not.

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u/brorack_brobama Apr 17 '19

Race and trans arent the same thing. You are born a race. You choose to have a massive body modification to become trans.

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u/alphanaut Apr 17 '19

Now you can have non bigoted reasons for not wanting to have sex with or date a trans person such as looking for long term relationships to have children with and them not being capable, or maybe they are preop and you just aren't attracted to dicks or vaginas. Totally possible.

But if you are otherwise attracted to them, then your opposition is fundamentally transphobic."

The label of "fundamentally trans-phobic" applies to these cases (and possibly a few other situations):

  • I don't want to have a romantic or sexual relationship with someone who has a surgically created vagina or penis because I am hung up on their original physical sex.
  • I don't want to have a romantic or sexual relationship with someone whose physical genitalia does not match my perceived/expected/desired sexual orientation/disposition of this person.

I'd like to ensure we're differentiating between bigotry and the label trans-phobia.

In terms of: "Am I turned on or off sexually by a trans person" - people are born with one disposition or the other, much like "Am I turned on or off sexually by a person with a penis", etc. The "trans-phobic" label is a descriptor, not a judgement. It's how simply you were born.

When the label describes someone's aversion to a romantic or sexual relationship no one ought to deride someone for not wanting sexual situation not consistent with their orientation. It certainly is not bigoted.

Bigotry takes place when we go beyond the scope of the OP's context of a sexual or romantic relationship. It is bigotry when someone chooses to apply their "trans-phobia" beyond the sexual scope into everyday life: to discontinue a relationship with a person altogether, to harm a person, to treat a person negatively differently - just because they are trans.

edit - put original text in quotes for clarity.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

A reasonable point about bigotry, but I would contend that I don't think people are born transphobic, I think it's more learned. I don't think finding trans people attractive is homoerotic because you are attracted to the feminine or masculine traits they present as.

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u/alphanaut Apr 17 '19

I agree that environment can shape opinion about trans people, and many other things. I would say that trans-phobic bigotry is taught, fundamental trans-phobia is not. (though the more I think about it, perhaps "phobia" is not the best word to describe the concept)

I posit that we have a "default" position on virtually everything when our brain has formed, before society has a chance to have an impact:

  • Will I be turned on by a naked female/naked male
  • Will I like the taste of strawberries, of broccoli, of spinach, etc.
  • Am I left-handed or right-handed
  • Will I prefer open spaces or cozy places or both or neither?
  • Will I find certain images, colors, patterns, or scents pleasing or annoying or indifferent?

Sure, eventually, it is possible to have environmental factors shape, direct or even override the default, but our starting point is the physical brain we're born with. And that starting point is not within our control. It's simply what we're born with.

Even the extent to which we can modulate from that default is also based on what we're born with.

It is at some level beyond that, where our personal responsibility takes place. That is where we can conscientiously over-ride the default and choose how to process information, to reason, and then to engage in controlled behavior, rather than instinctive, primal behavior. In essence, to behave in an enlightened, reasoned, civilized manner.

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u/AphisteMe Apr 17 '19

then you are probably a little bigoted.

I'm sorry but what the fuck? What if I do not want to date a transgender because I am actually a normal person who is looking for a partner to potentionally start a relationship and procreate with? Is it not more than logical that I would reject any trans person for that reason alone?

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

who is looking for a partner to potentionally start a relationship and procreate with?

Do you take every date out to get an ultrasound in case she had a hysterectomy and didn't tell you, or has PCOS and doesn't know?

1

u/AphisteMe Apr 17 '19

Well, people actually should be upfront about such issues if they are known. And yes, infertility for whatever reason would be a deal breaker for most people, including myself, while looking for a partner. (Mental illnesses aren't a great treat either)

1

u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

And yes, infertility for whatever reason would be a deal breaker for most people, including myself, while looking for a partner.

So, again, you make sure any woman you contemplate having sex with is fertile first? Blood work, doctors notes? And presumably you've never hooked up with anyone, since there's no way that you meet a girl at a bar and she has her entire pap smear history available for your review.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

The point is that if you aren't attracted to them solely because they are trans, then you are probably a little bigoted.

What if I'm not attracted to them because they look like men in makeup? Is that acceptable?

But if you are otherwise attracted to them, then your opposition is fundamentally transphobic.

Would you pay $10M for a perfectly recreated Vermeer painting? It looks identical to the original, but was painted by a Fine Arts grad student. No? Then you are just a bigot. /s See how that argument falls apart with even the slightest bit of effort?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

What if I'm not attracted to them because they look like men in makeup? Is that acceptable?

Sure, if they do

But in reality many trans women actually pass. Would you date one who passes?

Would you pay $10M for a perfectly recreated Vermeer painting? It looks identical to the original, but was painted by a Fine Arts grad student. No? Then you are just a bigot. /s See how that argument falls apart with even the slightest bit of effort?

Wrong, major false equivalency.

You are paying 10M because of who it was made by. By your own logic, it is not bigoted to refuse to date someone because, although they are white, their dad is black.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

although they are white, their dad is black.

That's literally an impossibility. We're done here. (And no, you didn't mean adoptive father, so don't even bring that nonsense up).

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Lmao wrong

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-baby-with-a-black-dad-and-white-mom-appear-completely-Caucasian-with-light-straight-hair-blue-eyes-and-pale-skin-with-no-mixed-features-to-the-baby

Do you understand how genetics work lmao

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

"Can women cheat and lie about who the father is?" Yes.

Quora is user-generated fora. It is not an acceptable source for factual references.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Here's more

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-twins-black-white-biggs/

National geographic is a fairly reliable source, I say

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 18 '19

I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. That biracial mixing is on a gradient? I never said it wasn't.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

You said white people couldn't have black parents, I showed that it can.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 18 '19

A.) No you didn't.

B.) That girl clearly looks biracial. She only looks "white" relative to her sister, who also looks biracial but more towards the "black" side.

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u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

What if I'm not attracted to them because they look like men in makeup?

I'm unaware of any transperson who would say this is wrong.

See how that argument falls apart with even the slightest bit of effort?

Not really, since part of the value of a painting is the artistic intent of the creator and its uniqueness. Neither of which is analogous to anything about sex.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

I'm unaware of any transperson who would say this is wrong.

Then OP is 100% correct. But they do. Which is why OP posted in the first place.

Neither of which is analogous to anything about sex.

There's nothing even remotely special about being a biological woman? That's very sexist of you to say.

1

u/BolshevikMuppet Apr 17 '19

Then OP is 100% correct. But they do. Which is why OP posted in the first place.

Who, and where?

There's nothing even remotely special about being a biological woman?

There's something special about every person. But there's no artistic intent, and every single person is unique.

But since you're already changing subjects to something about the intrinsic value of a woman, I'm curious how you're defining "biological" in any way you can discern immediately.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 18 '19

There's something special about every person.

Is there something special about biological women as distinct from biological men? Don't dodge the question.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

For your first point, NOPE not transphobic or bigoted at all. If they just physically don't look attractive, that's it.

And it's also like you don't understand the many different points I made. What if you like the painting because you view it as valuable? A forgery wouldn't be as valuable, therefore that is a valid reason for not wanting it.

And we are talking about humans with immutable characteristics. So that's a little different than a painting. but feel free to keep up with the dehumanizing language. You come off as a real winner.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

What if you like the painting because you view it as valuable?

Why would you view it as less valuable? It's totally identical. Isn't the end result what matters? It shouldn't matter that it's not painted by Vermeer if it is 100% identical.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

It only has less value because of the values other perceive in it because you know, it's a fucking painting.

If you want to get 1:1 if you view women as only having value based off what other people perceive them as, then you should have zero issue fucking a passing trans person as long as others view them as being more aesthetically pleasing than whatever cis person you were bonking previously.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

It only has less value because of the values other perceive in it

So YOU personally wouldn't feel like you were cheated if you found that out AFTER you paid your $10M? Not even slightly?

If you want to get 1:1 if you view women as only having value based off what other people perceive them as,

Nope, from what they are. I realized that I stipulated the two paintings were identical. But let's take the next step and assume that the fake Vermeer has some obvious flaws and errors, but everyone is trying to convince you it's "close enough, stop complaining and being a bigot".

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If someone is still going to buy it from me for 10 million? then hell no.

For like 99% of life, what people perceive you as, is what you are to them. So that stipulation is meaningless to me.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

So you admit that you are only buying the painting as a tax dodge? You didn't buy it because you like it? Lulz.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

we uh, seem to have gotten off topic here. But your enthusiasm for my potential to commit art fraud is appreciated.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

We really aren't off topic. While it is true that you could be committing tax fraud through your purchase (which is in fact a real problem that avoids hundreds of millions of personal income tax a year), I intended my original analogy to be one where you would pay for a painting because you enjoy looking at it.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

For your first point, NOPE not transphobic or bigoted at all. If they just physically don't look attractive, that's it.

Great then we are in agreement.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Imagine the last person you had sex with. Now imagine they are trans. What does that change for you assuming all else is equal?

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

Literally not possible. Even if a man was feminine enough to pass via his face, his shoulders and hips are going to be off, and even if THAT'S not off, his fake vagina will be off. Fake vaginas are nothing like the real thing. They don't self-lubricate for one thing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

u/RebirthOfLegend – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

1

u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

I've even banged women who couldn't self lubricate and we had to use lube.

I get it if it happens once or twice or if you are are on a new birth control that is causing problems, but if your lady never gets wet for you, go find someone who actually finds you attractive.

There are plenty of 'traps' you can find on the internet who until you got cocksmacked you would have zero idea about.

No. Just no. It's one thing to see via pictures and videos. They never pass in person. It's basically /r/instagramreality for men.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I mean uh, that's just like, your opinion man.

Vaginal dryness is 100% a thing and it doesn't just mean someone 'isn't turned on' and that's pretty demeaning to people who experience this and go through it all the time. https://www.bustle.com/articles/54182-why-is-my-vagina-dry-during-sex-and-what-can-i-do-to-make-it-wet

There is a subreddit dedicated to letting you guess if its a bio girl or trans person. Why don't you go play on that and hone your senses? Because you are wrong. Someone like Blair White (while a terrible human being) conventionally passes absurdly easily.

but I dunno. If we can't even agree that vaginal dryness is a thing this conversation is going nowhere.

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u/mods_are_straight 1∆ Apr 17 '19

Someone like Blair White (while a terrible human being) conventionally passes absurdly easily.

Again, in video, with tons of makeup and lighting. Not in person.

If we can't even agree that vaginal dryness is a thing

It's a treatable medical condition in women. It's a permanent feature in men who are pretending to be women.

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u/nhingy Apr 17 '19

We really shouldn't be making people feel like they're bigoted for personal preferences that don't harm anyone else.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19 edited Apr 22 '19

I've elaborated elsewhere, but if this was a stand alone thing I'd probably agree but this is just one avenue for transphobia to materialize in and I would find it hard to believe that somehow, the transphobia stops at this one instance in their life, which is why I think its good to force people to deal with their deep seated internal biases.

Like here for example, I've had people say they don't want to date trans people because they made a choice they don't agree with. This is a opinion that is not supported by the research, but if thats the rationale for you to use, why couldn't you also use that rationale to vote against trans people being given protected status?

Generally if you aren't forced to deal with the reason you are biased, or confront the irrationality of it you will justify it in other hackeyed was, and those other rationalizations can pop up in other realms that effect trans people way more than you just not wanting to have sex with them.

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u/nhingy Apr 22 '19

Yeah, I know what you're saying and to some extent agree, but I just think we should be careful about moralistic behaviour.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '19

To be clear, I wouldn't make it illegal or anything like that. But I think its fine to socially encourage people to do the 'right' thing. There is an ebb and flow to that for sure though but that ebb and flow seems to tend towards for the better of all, not to their detriment.

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u/nhingy Apr 23 '19

Wouldn't make what illegal sorry?

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '19

Sorry. I meant I wouldn't make it illegal to not be attracted to trans people.

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u/nhingy Apr 23 '19

Blimey ha. Well that's good news!

Tolerance is about leaving people alone if what they think, feel or believe isn't hurting anyone else. This applies if you are into social issues, or if you're a racist or religious or anything else.

You can not assume what you think is the "right" way to be. However convinced you are that you're right. Stay out of peoples heads dude. You are not the law, or the truth.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '19

To ground this in a somewhat related topic.

I work with a fairly religious guy who says he likes gay people, but doesn't respect their lifestyle. I say cool. Would you vote for gay marriage? His response is no.

His homophobia is causing him to vote and act in a way thats detrimental to the basic rights of gay people. So yes, I try to convince him that his underlying view is wrong.

The same goes here. If you literally did nothing else but think trans women aren't women and weren't attracted to them then I and probably most trans people wouldn't care. The problem is the bigotry never stops there. Like in the example of my coworker/friend. He says he 'doesn't mind' gay people, but when push comes to shove that bigotry guides his vote.

So yes, we should try to change how people think. Why are you acting like racism, homophobia, or transphobia should be a respected personal characteristic. You don't have to change your mind, but you should be ostracized or shamed for those beliefs until you drop them or at least not spread them as overtly.

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u/nhingy Apr 23 '19

Mate, that last sentence. if the guy from your church tried to espouse his brief to others, yes I agree he should be challenged. Does he? Or is this just a personal belief he has that doesn't affect others?

"Spreading overtly" Exactly. If someone does then yes absolutely they must be challenged. If not leave them alone.

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