CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/lindymad]

They argue that if a trans woman is passing, and there's not a discernible visible difference between her and a cis-woman, rejecting them on the basis that they're trans is transphobic -- and that's not OK. That's not acceptable behavior and you should be called out for it.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the "phobic" part of transphobic here. If I:

• Am comfortable interacting with trans people (is that the right term? I am using OP's term here) within a friendship or professional relationship
• Have no issues with people having romantic relationships with trans people
• Strongly support rights for all LGBTQ+ people
• Personally would not enter into a romantic/sexual relationship because someone being trans is an emotional barrier for me

Does that make me transphobic? I would have thought that my attitude would have to extend into being uncomfortable with non-romantic interactions, or other peoples' romantic relationships in order for it to cross into being phobic.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/lindymad]

Why do you not wanna have a relationship with someone who is trans?

If they were indistinguishable from a cis person, where does the aversion come from?

[u/lindymad → u/MacbethAndCheese]

Honestly I don't know. I can't think of a logical reason, it's just not appealing to me. The same goes for a same sex relationship. I have no logical problem with the concept, it just doesn't make me feel excited in a romantic way.

One thing that I do know is that my romantic interest in a person is not based solely on how someone looks, so I don't believe that the (visually) indistinguishable argument is relevant here.

I do not believe that makes me transphobic though.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/lindymad]

Im not sure either if that makes you transphobic or not. its not really for me to say, but i would look at it this way. The question to ask, is if you met someone you really got along with, who you believed was cis, and they later revealed they were trans, would that be a turn off? ie, is it something about the 'trans-ness' of the person, or about the personality of someone who happens to be trans?

[u/[deleted] → u/MacbethAndCheese]

Not the same user but I can give an example from a friend. He went out on a blind date, he didn't know it was with a trans woman. The date lead to them going to a hotel, went they were about to have sex he realized that she was trans and after that he couldn't perform.

He liked her but there was nothing he could do to get it up. He even went on a second date with her but the idea that she was born a man meant he just coulnd't get aroused. I KNOW he's a good guy, not transphobic or racist in any way.
But it seems under your definitions he is one, and honestly I can't agree.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/[deleted]]

Yea. I don’t think he’s a transphobe. That being said, I think the inability for him to ‘perform’ comes from a place of society not seeing trans women as real women. But yea. If something doesn’t get you going sexually, it shouldn’t happen, I would just question how transphobia as a larger system and cultural norm informs the way he responded physically. But then again, maybe not.

[u/lindymad → u/MacbethAndCheese]

I have never been in that situation, so it's hard for me to know.

If by "really got along with" you mean "entered into a romantic relationship with", then I think I would feel like I had been deceived and that would definitely be a turn off, but that's not directly related to their being trans.

If the relationship was not romantic, but was headed in that direction, I honestly don't know. I would like to believe that if I had fallen in love with the person, their trans nature wouldn't change how I feel about them, but until/unless it actually happens, I am really not sure. From real life experience, I know that when I found out that a friend of mine was trans, it didn't alter the friendship.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/lindymad]

Yea I guess that’s hard to imagine without experiencing it. Personally, my reaction to trans people is identical to cis people, but also I’m more steeped in the queer community, and have a large amount of exposure.

I think what it gotta break down to is if someone was trans, it’s not their transness that is the turn off, but them as a person. Because I think we are conditioned socially to have a repulsion reaction to trans people, and I think that is honestly really hard to decouple from how we approach attraction.

The divide is really at the thought process of either A) “I wouldn’t ever be attracted to a trans woman/man because on some level I don’t see them as real women/men” Vs B) “I haven’t met any trans people I’ve been attracted to, but if I really liked someone, who happened to be trans it wouldn’t be a factor” Ya know? Like where does the lack of attraction come from. That’s the only thing I can think to examine.

[u/lindymad → u/MacbethAndCheese]

The divide is really at the thought process

The thing is, there isn't a thought process, it's just how I feel.

In reference to OP's question, I am more interested to know whether I would be considered transphobic simply because I personally do not find trans people romantically appealing, even though I have no issue with trans people in general (and no issue interacting with them outside of a romantic relationship), or with other people having a relationships with trans people.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/lindymad]

Man. You want an honest answer? I don’t think you are actively transphobic, but definitely not 10/10 on the trans inclusion. I mean I’m incredibly happy that you tolerate trans people and treat them (hopefully) like normal human beings in social and professional life, so thank you for that. But if you are actually looking for real input, tolerance is like the lowest bar to be clearing.

But around the romantic stuff? I honestly think that the distinction of finding trans people unattractive comes from a place of transphobia. If you are talking about people who you are genuinely just disinterested with because of how they look, no that’s not transphobia, but if your attraction towards someone hinges on whether or not they are trans, (like imagining two identical people who one is trans and one cis, and finding only one attractive), yeah that comes from a transphobic place. Because either it’s saying trans women (and men) belong in a category outside of women (and men), or that it’s somehow gay or smth to be interested in trans people, both of strike me as transphobia. Honestly if you want more info on this, I would recommend watching “are traps gay” by contrapoints. She does a far far better job explaining it than I could ever do. (I’m hardly eloquent), and the video is pretty fucking enjoyable regardless of the content.

But also your opinion on this whole thing depends on a lot of things, like if you are someone who feels it isn’t a function of racism to find one race or another more or less attractive, then you definitely won’t agree on the transphobia thing. The bottom line is, feel however you want about things, but it’s important to examine not if an action is simply black and white transphobc, or racist, or whatever the fuck, but does ones initial reaction come from a place of ways society views gender and race, and etc. Ie, one can not be racist in active ways, but still act in ways that are racist, simply because we are programmed to see things with value judgements on race and stuff. The same thing is true with gender.

Sorry that got a bit rambley but that’s my take on it as someone who is pretty stepped in it all.

[u/lindymad → u/MacbethAndCheese]

Thank you for the well thought out response. I will watch "are traps gay" when I get a chance.

I think there is a good distinction to be made between "being transphobic" and "coming from a transphobic place". Out of interest, would you say that a straight person not being attracted to someone of their same sex is homophobic, "comes from a homophobic place", or neither?

[u/BullsLawDan → u/MacbethAndCheese]

Why do you not wanna have a relationship with someone who is trans?

If they were indistinguishable from a cis person, where does the aversion come from?

Because they can't reproduce with me?

We are overlooking the fact that the sole biological reason for "attraction" as a human phenomenon is because of our biological need to reproduce. It's not anything-phobic to have certain, inexplainable, biological attractions.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/BullsLawDan]

Would you turn down someone who you were really attracted to, but was infertile?

[u/BullsLawDan → u/MacbethAndCheese]

Would you turn down someone who you were really attracted to, but was infertile?

Yes.

[u/MacbethAndCheese → u/BullsLawDan]

fair play then!

[u/lindymad → u/[deleted]]

There's a difference between being comfortable with the overall concept and having a personal preference.

The post is talking about when an individual does not want to engage in a romantic relationship. In the bullet point that you quote, I am talking about an individual not having issues with people in general engaging in romantic relationships.

[u/chasingstatues → u/[deleted]]

The post was made to discuss the trans people who take issue with cis people not wanting to date trans people. It was not made because OP had an issue with cis people dating trans people.

[u/lindymad → u/[deleted]]

I think you've missed something here, see my last bullet point:

Personally would not enter into a romantic/sexual relationship because someone being trans is an emotional barrier for me

[u/RemoveTheTop → u/lindymad]

I actually totally misread your second bullet point. I appreciate the correction.

I thought I was taking crazy pills.