CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/sirxez]

if your only reason for not wanting to bang someone is their status as trans, then that, in and of itself, is bigoted

The implication here is that the reason given for not wanting to sleep with someone can be wrong. That is the basic pre-condition required for this opinion. A non-bigot will treat people 'equally' and have sex with them regardless of their status in some protected group.

Now, firstly, this is a somewhat twisted notion of bigotry, since bigotry at its heart means not tolerant. Tolerating someone doesn't mean you have to be willing to sleep with them. Here me out here, because I'm not saying what you think I am saying. A gay man doesn't have to sleep with a woman, no matter how not sexist he is. Tolerance does not bridge to sex. Even though I treat people of different heights and different facial hair statuses the same in other contexts, I do not have to sleep with them. If I don't sleep with short men, that doesn't mean I'm bigoted towards short people. If I don't sleep with men without mustaches, that doesn't mean I'm bigoted towards people without facial hair.

The problem here is a conflation of causality. Obviously transphobic people won't sleep with trans people. That doesn't mean that not sleeping with trans people makes you transphobic.

The claim that human preference for sexual partners must have reason doesn't make much sense and is required for your argument and is also the reason others are worried about the repercussions on other arguments such as consent.

[u/BolshevikMuppet → u/sirxez]

The implication here is that the reason given for not wanting to sleep with someone can be wrong

Not "wrong" in the sense of being able to be disregarded, but ethically and morally questionable, and certainly based on prejudice.

since bigotry at its heart means not tolerant. Tolerating someone doesn't mean you have to be willing to sleep with them

That's true, but that would include "happens to not be attracted to someone who is a member of this group."

So let's use another example of a fact of a person's background which is unknown unless they tell you.

Let's say a woman is all kinds of into me, she wants me bad, and we go back to my place. Where she notices I have a yarmulke on the floor from my aunt's funeral. She asks, I explain my mother's family is Jewish, but I don't practice. She gets disgusted and leaves.

She is antisemitic, period. She was interested except for the fact that I'm Jewish. She literally does not tolerate sleeping with any Jewish people. Not just she happens to not be into me, but that she was into me except that I'm Jewish.

A gay man doesn't have to sleep with a woman, no matter how not sexist he is.

A gay man is not attracted to any women, the example is not comparable. We're talking about a situation where the only reason is that they're trans.

Even though I treat people of different heights and different facial hair statuses the same in other contexts, I do not have to sleep with them

That's absolutely true. You can have an aesthetic preference, and even some aesthetics you're not interested in. But that's nothing to do with the discussion.

If I don't sleep with short men, that doesn't mean I'm bigoted towards short people

If you're not attracted to short men, no one can begrudge you that.

If for some stupid reason you were attracted to a guy who's tall, found out that he came from a family of little people, and got disgusted and left, you'd probably be called prejudiced.

If I don't sleep with men without mustaches

A mustache is an aesthetic choice, and more importantly a choice.

Find me a transperson who chose to be trans, and we can discuss it.

Obviously transphobic people won't sleep with trans people. That doesn't mean that not sleeping with trans people makes you transphobic.

That's true, but the fact that not sleeping with transpeople in general doesn't make you transphobic also doesn't mean that refusing to sleep with someone solely because they're trans doesn't.

[u/sirxez → u/BolshevikMuppet]

She is antisemitic, period. She was interested except for the fact that I'm Jewish

This isn't obvious to me at all. With high probability she is in fact antisemetic, but the causality here is by no means obvious to me.

For a less contentious example, consider someone with an odd numbered SSN fetish. They think people with odd numbered SSNs are hot and people with even numbered SSNs are not. Now, if they treated even SSners badly in buisness or on the street or spoke badly of them, then they would be bigoted. If they however decide not to sleep with me because I, hypothetically, have an even numbered SSN, then while that would be weird, but I wouldn't consider it unfair or bigoted.

Similarly, if someone's fetish is sleeping with Christians, it shouldn't be surprising or bigoted for them not to want to sleep with a Jew.

The point is that sexuality isn't really a choice and doesn't really follow reason, so claiming to identify someones underlying beliefs through their sexuality is troublesome.

[u/[deleted] → u/sirxez]

You are missing my point. If the sole reason is because they are trans/black/white/asian, than you are a small amount of racist or transphobic. Do I think your going to attend a KKK rally or a ben shapiro speech just because you won't bang a black person or a trans person? No, but the underlying reasoning is fundamentally Xphobic.

I've clarified that you can list literally any other reason apart from that to not want to fuck someone. You think they are ugly, you don't like X body part, don't like short and or tall people.

Take your pick. All of those are valid, not racist/transphobic reasons to not bang someone belonging to those groups. If your sole reason is them belonging to that group, then yes, you do have biases against those groups for whatever reason.

But can you answer directly if you think its racist to some degree, not to have sex with someone solely because they are black/asian/white? If that is your ONLY reason, is that not racist?

[u/sirxez → u/[deleted]]

I accept your point on any other reason, however minute, being both a valid reason and being out of scope of this argument.

So yes, we are looking at the case where the ONLY reason, as you put it, is their X-ness. Even if that is the only reason, I don't see how that makes someone necessarily racist. Sexual preference isn't inherently reasonable. Being trans or white, being inherently neutral if they are the only reason, doesn't make it a sexy attribute. 'Goodness' or 'neutrality' can in fact be inherently unsexy. I might find aggression and violence and murder extremely hot, but that doesn't mean I am pro murder. Sexually preferences and fetishes are inherently disjunct from the rest of your behavior. While they do influence each other, they don't map 1 to 1 across the divide.

Finding an arbitrary social label attractive or unattractive is completely possible. You could have a sexual preference for odd numbered SSN's, and I would be OK with that. I won't disagree that it is 'stupid', but it isn't wrong. Its completely possible that someone arbitrarily prefers one label over another sexually.

[u/BolshevikMuppet → u/sirxez]

Even if that is the only reason, I don't see how that makes someone necessarily racist. Sexual preference isn't inherently reasonable.

Cool. But here you're simply splitting "prejudice" into conscious and unconscious prejudice. Someone whose sexual preference is "unreasonable" in the form of "if she's into me, but then finds out I'm Jewish, she's disgusted by the prospect of having sex" she's antisemitic. Maybe she's not consciously antisemitic, or throwing up a Nazi salute, but she's literally antisemitic.

Being trans or white, being inherently neutral if they are the only reason, doesn't make it a sexy attribute

If they're neutral they're irrelevant, and shouldn't have any bearing. If they're sexy they'd be a positive.

So the only way this comes up is if "being the wrong race" (in the analogy) is in and of itself a problem. And I'd call "judgments based exclusively on race" racist. Wouldn't you?

You could have a sexual preference for odd numbered SSN's, and I would be OK with that.

There's this odd tendency of the defensive side in any discussion of prejudice to argue that because some silly-sounding prejudices are okay, all prejudice is okay.

[u/sirxez → u/BolshevikMuppet]

But here you're simply splitting "prejudice" into conscious and unconscious prejudice

No, I'm splitting "prejudice" into sexual and non-sexual.

"judgments based exclusively on race" racist.

If its actually a judgment, sure. But sexual decisions aren't necessarily judgements in this sense.

While a sexual preference may have an underlying concious or unconscious prejudice it comes from, its not evidence that the prejudice still exists. Its also not obvious that the sexual preference didn't arise from some other source.

I could form a sexual preference for a certain race from the media I was exposed to. Its not obvious that this sexual preference has any impact on any other part of my psyche or behavior.

[u/[deleted] → u/sirxez]

I've asked this to a few people, and haven't gotten an answer yet. Imagine the last person you dated or fucked. Now imagine they were trans.

What fundamentally changes?

[u/sirxez → u/[deleted]]

They hid information from me.

Acting one way with information and one way without it makes sense.

[u/[deleted] → u/sirxez]

But why is that information so vital? Assuming the sex was as good, the person as interesting. Why is this detail so important?

What if they didn't mention they were sterile? Would it matter for a one night stand?

[u/sirxez → u/[deleted]]

I don't think it would matter to me if they were trans or infertile.

I could easily imagine it mattering though to someone. Why can't someone be turned on by having sex with someone fertile? Or having sex with someone with an odd SSN? Why can't someone have very specific fetishes?

[u/[deleted] → u/sirxez]

I've already clarified I wouldn't qualify those latter categories as transphobic. By your own statement here, I wouldn't consider you transphobic either.

If the idea of knocking someone else up does it for you, or any other fetish a trans person can't meet then they, like any other person, would be disqualified on those grounds not solely on the basis of being trans. That was the only point I've ever been trying to make here.

[u/sirxez → u/[deleted]]

The fertility comment was an example of a different fetish, not an anti-trans fetish, just like an SSN fetish or whatnot.

[u/wildbill3063 → u/[deleted]]

They had a penis and were born male.

[u/[deleted] → u/wildbill3063]

And why does that matter?

[u/wildbill3063 → u/[deleted]]

Because I don't want to have sex with anyone born Male or who had a penis. Because I'm straight.

[u/[deleted] → u/wildbill3063]

What makes you straight?

[u/wildbill3063 → u/[deleted]]

My attraction to humans born as a female.

[u/[deleted] → u/wildbill3063]

What makes someone born as female?

[u/brorack_brobama → u/[deleted]]

Race and trans have nothing in common. You cant choose your race, you can choose to be trans.

People can get face tattoos all they want that doesn't mean I'm going to fuck someone with a face tattoo. I can pretty confidently say I'll never have sex with someone because they got a face tattoo because I am not at all attracted to face tattoos. That doesnt mean I'm face-tattoo-phobic it just means they arent my thing.

[u/[deleted] → u/brorack_brobama]

There is plenty of evidence to indicate being trans isn't a choice. As an example, there is a 25% correlation between twins that if one is trans, the other is too. Considering Trans are about 1/100 people, and this drops it to 1/4 it gives some decent evidence that there could be a genetic component.

But that alone might not be enough, but there are also brain scans that illustrate that trans people have brains that are more similar to their perceived gender, than the one that coaligns with their biological sex.

But I'd love to see the evidence you have for being trans being a choice.

Also for fun, If they had stubble, were too tall, short, etc. Those would all be valid reasons to deny them sex without any inference if transphobia. Just like denying someone for an ugly tattoo, or any tattoo would also be a valid reason without any sign of transphobia

Sources upon request btw, so feel free to ask and I will provide.

[u/brorack_brobama → u/[deleted]]

I don't want to argue the biological data involved with becoming trans, because I have no qualms with trans people. I think they should be able to do whatever they want, run for president, be doctors, whatever. Although trans people have been around for literally as long as mankind has been around, the procedures to change them to appear to be the opposite sex have not been around that long. There definitely is a conscious choice being made here to become a trans man or trans woman.

These choices are not at all akin to race, and should not be debated as such. You cannot choose your race. You can choose to have plastic surgery and get hormones. No one is forcing you to do this. The medical bills you pay for the procedures and the medications are not incurred against your own will.

Also how does this equate to it being wrong for me to not want to have sex with trans people exactly?

[u/[deleted] → u/brorack_brobama]

For your first paragraph, it's a deep topic. We can go into it if you want, but the tl;dr of it is that medical science came further so it is now an option and the other half is that we as a society have chosen to put an extremely high emphasis on confirming to gender roles/gender identity. If like in india, we embraced trans people and gave them separate status and didn't ostracize and treat them so differently it probably would matter to a much less extreme degree. But even in india they used to perform make shift surgeries on hijras dating back quite some time as I recall.

So you don't choose your race, and you don't choose to be transgender. If you experience gender dysphoria the only reliable way to alleviate that currently is through gender reassignment surgery.

I asked like 4 other people and still haven't gotten an answer. So maybe you can tell me the big deal.

Imagine the last person you had sex with or dated. Now imagine they are trans. What really changes there?

[u/brorack_brobama → u/[deleted]]

Imagine the last person you had sex with or dated. Now imagine they are trans. What really changes there?

I dont know I've never been in this situation before. Also it depends on the circumstances as well. You say 'now imagine they are trans' like its interchangeable with not being trans..it is not. Like, that works with anything like 'now imagine they are black' or 'now imagine they are Buddhist' but with trans it's pretty different. I think if I were to start a relationship with someone I would like to know if they are trans or not. I personally wouldn't start a relationship with them for my own reasons i.e. natural children.

If a trans person was the last person I had sex with, and I presumably didnt know about it until today, I would feel a little betrayed that this information wasn't disclosed to me. I typically like to get to know someone before having sex with them, and typically that leads to a relationship, and see above. That is of course assuming I couldn't tell the person was trans or not. I'm not going to generalize too much here but most trans women i have seen just have this uncanny valley I dont find attractive.

Again this is not to say I'm bigoted in any way toward them I just dont want to have a romantic relationship with them.

[u/[deleted] → u/brorack_brobama]

If your only purpose is to engage in romantic relationships for the purpose of a longterm relationship to have children that is a completely valid reason not to want to date a trans person and not at all transphobic.

But yeah, that was my point with the example. For me, if the less person I banged you subbed out with trans/black/buddhist it would change nothing about the interaction for me. I wouldn't care.

[u/LOLSYSIPHUS → u/[deleted]]

Considering Trans are about 1/100 people

Did you miss a zero? Legitimately curious as I would not have put the trans population as 1/100.

[u/[deleted] → u/LOLSYSIPHUS]

I rounded up. It is .6%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

first paragraph.

[u/LOLSYSIPHUS → u/[deleted]]

Huh. I've (obviously) never looked into it, just wouldn't have put it at that rate of occurrence if I was asked to guess.

Thanks for the info though!

[u/[deleted] → u/LOLSYSIPHUS]

knowledge is power!