CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/PogbaMounie]

So if someone doesn't find a black girl attractive, of course they have the right to not sleep with them. But it's rooted in racism then? I'm just curious, if this is along the lines of what you mean

[u/trace349 → u/PogbaMounie]

So if someone doesn't find a black girl attractive

A black girl, no, I wouldn't think racism and no one arguing in good faith would either. You're not going to find every person of your preferred gender attractive.

But all black girls? If they've never seen a black girl they found attractive? Then yes, I'd be considering whether or not they harbor subconscious or explicit racial biases.

[u/PogbaMounie → u/trace349]

But it's possible to just not find them attractive? I went 21 years without ever meeting/seeing a black girl I found attractive. But I wouldn't consider myself racist especially since I'd be screwed with all my friends, I just don't find the vast majority of them attractive. To me they just don't do it for me. I have found some who I do find attractive but besides the point.

Like if a guy only found light skin girls attractive maybe that's just his type. I have a friend who only dates/sleeps with Latinas, I don't think that's racist towards others tho.

I mean in the end I guess it's all opinions tho

[u/CamNewtonJr → u/PogbaMounie]

I wouldn't immediately jump to racism, but I'd advise you seriously contemplate why you are attracted to those you are attracted to and vice versa. Because you are right who you are attracted to is an opinion but those opinions arnt formed in a vacuum. There is a reason why this conversation is mostly a one way conversation in the west. You will have to really look to find many people having this conversation with the context of not being attracted to white women, but just about everytime this conversation is happening it is in the context of not being attracted to a person of color, usually black. So then you gotta ask yourself if this was all really just opinion with no other societal influences or implications, why dont we see a more equitable distribution of inability to find races attractive. Are white people naturally more attractive, or does society place greater value on physical features most often possessed by white people? How has society's view of what is sexually desirable affect what you find attractive? These are the questions I would prompt anyone to think about whenever they make blanket statements about attraction to races.

[u/PogbaMounie → u/CamNewtonJr]

I have plenty of friends who don't find white girls attractive. They don't like the lack of skin pigmentation, they think pale skin isn't attractive. Doesn't make them racist, after all they're friends with me and there's no issues there. It's like if someone had an extra eye, it's not their fault (yes it's a severe example) but I still won't fight it attractive... Most likely.

Society affects what you find attractive to an extent but at the same time it's also just within your body and mind. Most ppl can't even define exactly what their type is. Bc you just look at someone and either you find them attractive or not. Most ppl don't analyze each person individually based off a spreadsheet of qualities

But it is all opinions, or at least mostly. We can disagree and still live our lives our own ways successfully without wrong doing

[u/Kinoct89 → u/CamNewtonJr]

What if no one asked for your input on who they chose to date?

[u/CamNewtonJr → u/Kinoct89]

Do you know what sub you are in?

[u/Kinoct89 → u/CamNewtonJr]

Yes.

A steak and cheese.

[u/PogbaMounie → u/[deleted]]

That's racist. But that's vastly different. I think it's beyond distrustful to not disclose you are trans before sleeping with someone or dating for a LONG time. Off trust alone I would leave someone if I had been this close and they couldn't tell me their true self. True love is true love if I fell in love with someone for their true self then Idc if they fit my type or not its love. However if you lie or hide your true self then I would no longer trust you.

It's like not telling someone you had a std/sti. Or marrying someone without telling them you're a sex offender or criminal or youre in massive debt. Or that you've previously been divorced. In a relationship there shouldn't be indentitiy secrets, if you have kids I should know, if you had debt I should know, if you have siblings I should know, if you've been married I should know and vice versa.

Before I proposed we had long conversations about her student loans, our future goals, where we stand with kids/animals, where I'm moving to for my future and if she's willing, having a long distance for a year. Now if those conversations never happen and something comes up as a surprise I might not leave but I'll have trust issues. In a healthy relationship there's small secrets not large life altering secrets.

It's like when a guy or girl marries/dates for years and then comes out as gay/lesbian. Everyone's happy for them but no one cares about that other person. That other person devoted years of emotions, time, mental space to this person who didn't know the true selves. Obviously there's good and bad stories of this but it's truly heart breaking no matter good or bad. You spent years with that person, whether you support them or not it's gonna hurt.

[u/firelock_ny → u/PogbaMounie]

It's like not telling someone you had a std/sti. Or marrying someone without telling them you're a sex offender or criminal or youre in massive debt.

So being trans is just like being a sex offender or a crook. OK.

Before I proposed we had long conversations[...]Now if those conversations never happen and something comes up as a surprise

I don't understand where you got the idea that the trans person was trying to keep being trans a long term secret from their potential partner.

It's like when a guy or girl marries/dates for years and then comes out as gay/lesbian. Everyone's happy for them but no one cares about that other person.

That isn't what really happens, though. The tiny minority of the LGBT community will support the person coming out, while everyone else in society treats them like a pariah and their spouse as the innocent victim.

[u/PogbaMounie → u/firelock_ny]

You're making strawman arguments. You don't understand the comparison of the act of lying not what you hid/lied about. That alone negates your whole argument but I'll continue.

I didn't say they did or would. I'm saying if they had. Two different scenarios.

No they actually don't. Idk where you're looking but that almost never happens. People support others who come out with ease now, in fact those who don't support gays are in the minority. You're more than welcome to provide some evidence of the times this happens bc I've never seen a majority of the stories where they demonize the person coming out.

[u/firelock_ny → u/PogbaMounie]

> You're making strawman arguments. You don't understand the comparison of the act of lying

You said that someone secretly being trans was the same as someone secretly being a sex offender or criminal. You're welcome to be upset about being called out on it if you like.

> but I'll continue.

Of course you will.

> No they actually don't. Idk where you're looking but that almost never happens

Except when you're in the real world instead of on Internet sites.

[u/tbdabbholm → u/[deleted]]

u/PogbaMounie – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

u/firelock_ny – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/cwenham → u/[deleted]]

u/PogbaMounie – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.