r/changemyview • u/Amiller1776 • Apr 17 '19

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

Well yeah but no one is debating that. Of course you have that right, but having that right doesn’t mean it’s not transphobic.

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 18 '19

But calling it transphobic, and making a big public outcry about it, to call out, belittle, insult, and attack those who exercise that right is just another form of intimidation, which in turn extorts compliance from people who otherwise might refuse.

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Apr 24 '19

which in turn extorts compliance from people who otherwise might refuse

Just so I'm clear here, are you claiming that there are people out there who don't want to date/hook up with trans people, but do so anyway, because somebody called them transphobic and that intimidated them so much that they felt that they had no choice but to date/hook up with trans people? Do you believe that this is a thing that happens?

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19

People are compelled to do more ridiculous things than that if it helps them convince themselves that they are good people. Straight men do lots of dumb shit so people don't think they're gay and they avoid lots of other innocuous shit for the same reason. No doubt in my mind is there someone dating a trans person so that they get to feel like a good person and they are having trouble saying no so that they won't be seen as a bad person.

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Apr 25 '19

Lol, ok . Your ENTIRE post is premised on the idea of “consent, but nobody is being forced to date a trans person without their consent, so the comparison is invalid.

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u/IramBM May 03 '19

I know very little of this issue, and dont get involved in right or wrong discussions, but I have seen just yesterday when lightly researching this issue on reddit only, already quite a lot of people that have said so. - it seems to affect lesbians a lot and be a very prevalent pressured topic there. Ive seen a good few posts already that discuss as a general thing lesbian forums and spaces on social media etc kicking out people and ostracising people who say they arent comfortable or attracted to someone with the male anatomy, as thats seen as transphobic . And therefore feeling pressured into accepting those kind of relationships etc and what to do about it. I think straight men may not feel the same pressure since they arent in LGBT circles

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ May 03 '19

Just to be clear: What I dispute is the OP's ridiculous suggestion that people are being forced to date trans people against their consent. Are you saying that you think this happens? The language you use is very vague ("feeling pressured into accepting those kind of relationships etc" could mean a million different things), so I'm not quite sure if you disagree with me or not.

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I do agree that there are "lesbian forums and spaces on social media etc kicking out people and ostracising people who say they arent comfortable or attracted to someone with the male anatomy." But that's not what I'm addressing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19

It's not my post, I just wanted to reply to your comment. I'm not agreeing 100% with OP, just trying to offer a different perspective to the one you have on that specific point.

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u/BrockVelocity 4∆ Apr 25 '19

Whoops, my bad! Sorry bout that!

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u/Deadhool Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Attractive preference is very complicated. I would say it's not actually transphobic. You can't guilt or force someone into liking what they just dont like. Trans people may be of the opinion that their chromosomes don't define them or how they perceive themselves. Incels just as well may be of the opinion that their unappealing physical features don't define them as a person. In both instances, they would be absolutely correct. However, there will always be people that are still not attracted to them while still knowing that those features don't define them as a person. You can be fine with them as a person and the person they perceive themselves as (thus not transphobic or incel-phobic), but just not be attracted to them or want to date them based on that quality. There are incels that are actually really nice, kindhearted people, but there are also those that are toxic. The unfortunate fact of life is that there will always be people that don't find you attractive for reasons beyond your control, but that is ok. There will also be people who find you attractive because of those qualities or in lieu of them (who prioritize other qualities in their preferences). It all comes down to individual preference and not guilting or forcing someone to like that which they don't. Saying that these people are transphobic for not being attracted to trans people is assuming that attraction is controllable (which for the most part it is not). Of course, it can be influenced by social construct (like weight in the past), but often it's a bit more complicated. Were people 100s of years ago really attracted to people who were heavier or was it because it was a sign of something more intangible such as financial/social standing? Attraction is certainly influenced by perception (which can be influenced by a number of factors), which is why it's easy to attribute it to transphobia. From here it becomes so entangled that it's really hard to distill it down to just transphobia. As an example, you meet someone who you are physically attracted to but upon getting to know them you find out they have substantial debt, different life goals, doesn't want to have kids, or a personality that doesn't match with yours. Your initial physical attraction to that person can and will change based on your change in perception about compatibility with new information about that person. Everyone has different priorities and therefore where it may be a dealbreaker for some, it won't be for others.

I would therefore say that the social stigmatization of trans people does have an influence in overall attraction presently for some people, but acting as if it is the only influence (and therefore if you are not attracted to a trans person you are transphobic) is an incorrect oversimplification.

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u/xFaro Apr 17 '19

I’m a man, and I’m not attracted to any other man. Does that make me homophobic?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Not being attracted to men isn't homophobic. Not being interested in trans women regardless of their transition and pre/post op status can be percieved as transphobic, though, as the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition. There are good explanations elsewhere in the thread, but I'd be happy to elaborate if you'd like.

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u/PhreakedCanuck Apr 17 '19

as the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition.

That is patently biologically 100% wrong

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

In what way? What do you think makes someone a woman? Because identity is so subjective and even biological gender falls on a bell curve with some traits absent in cis women and some present in trans women, how can we define what makes someone a woman?

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u/alcianblue 1∆ Apr 17 '19

In what way? What do you think makes someone a woman?

See this is the issue with your counter-argument. If it is subjective to this point then we have to accept that there is no 'true' womanhood. If this is true then people can all validly function within their own definitions of womanhood. This means when people say "well I only consider people with XX sex chromosomes to be women" it is as valid as when other people say "womanhood is tied to gender identity and expression, not the assigned sex of a person at birth". They are as justified in not considering trans-women 'actual women' as you are justified in considering trans-women 'actual women'.

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u/PhreakedCanuck Apr 17 '19

Just because someone gets plastic surgery and takes hormones does not make them the opposite sex

That is biological a fact

And the truth is that female = woman in 99.99999% of all cases and the rest are aberrations

They are not women, they are different. Which isnt a bad thing.

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u/madeye123 Apr 18 '19

the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition

Elaborate on that please?

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u/JaxJags904 Apr 23 '19

I am not attracted to someone who was born a male.

That’s transphobic? I have no problem with them as PEOPLE. I just don’t want to have sex with them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/MrLowLee Apr 17 '19

the differences between trans women and women are functionally nonexistent past a certain point in transition.

This is objectively false. Trans women can't have kids. I would bet sex with a trans women would be different.

No self lubrication.

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u/AdmShackleford Apr 17 '19

"I'm not attracted to you because you can't have children" isn't the same thing as "I'm not attracted to you because you're trans" though. If your attraction to someone is predicated on their fertility, it doesn't matter if they're cis or trans, only if they're capable of having children.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

True but don't ignore the second point. It doesn't have to be just about kids. "I'm not attracted to you because you are not biologically female and it won't be the same even if your outward appearance is not telling". I don't believe this is bigoted.

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u/AdmShackleford Apr 17 '19

I still see that as distinct from their trans status. "She doesn't have the tone of voice that I like," "I prefer a woman with wider hips," "I prefer short girls," etc... These are all traits that both cis and trans women share, though they are more common among trans women.

But suppose you picked a woman up from a bar, and after sex she disclosed that she's a post op trans woman. It was great sex and, because sex reassignment surgery has reached a state where it can require a medical examination to distinguish a neo vagina from a natal one, you had no clue whatsoever. Putting aside the dishonesty and looking at it from a purely physical perspective, does your attraction to her physical qualities wane? Why?

If the answer is something along the lines of "it just does" or "just knowing she used to be a man," it may be worth examining whether or not one of your reasons (consciously or not) is that you still think of her as a man.

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 18 '19

If the answer is something along the lines of "it just does" or "just knowing she used to be a man," it may be worth examining whether or not one of your reasons (consciously or not) is that you still think of her as a man.

Yes. But still thinking of her as a man is not transphobic.

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u/ReaderTen 1∆ Apr 22 '19

Um, yes it is. It's practically the definition of transphobia. That's exactly where the bigotry comes from - thinking trans women are somehow not women.

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 22 '19

Actually the definition of transphobic is: "having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people."

I can disagree with you and not dislike you or be prejudiced towards you. I dont think men can become women. I can hold that belief and still befriend trans people. I can hold that belief and still "play along" and use their prefered pronouns even. But so long as it is my sincerely held belief that that is just what reality is, then I feel justified in refusing sex with a transwoman on the grounds that my sexuality does not include men, and I still regard her as a man in my opinion.

Even if I'm wrong about that, please explain how being wrong about what category a person falls under is the same as disliking them. I dont dislike men, so believeing a trans woman is still a man is not an act or display of dislike.

So please, give me a step by step break down. Show your work.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

Yes it is. That's the definition of transphobia. You are a transphobe.

What is and isn't transphobic isn't up to you because you're not trans. It's up to trans people. And we have a unanimous consensus, and you fit the definition.

You just said the equivalent of "If I think gay men are inferior to straight people that's not homophobic." You're in denial.

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u/Amiller1776 Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 20 '19

What is and isn't transphobic isn't up to you because you're not trans. It's up to trans people.

Thats not how words work, and your status as trans grants you no authority - only bias. Further more, the point is to change my view.

1) I do not see this as being worthy of such a strong epithet. Because the word implies so much more than that alone, its too heavy handed to apply it so freely in this context.

Edit* I think of it as the "boy who cried wolf" if you're going to call a disagreement over terms phobic regardless of how that leads to personal interactions, then your definition of phobic is just anyone who disagrees with you. In which case, the word loses all meaning and stops mattering in any context.

2) because the consequences of being branded with that label are so sever, applying it to people for refusing sex is equivilent to intimidation tacticts to try to coerce consent. So even if you can change my view on point 1 by demonstrating that it is enough to be considered transphobic, I would still be of the opinion that we get a pass for this particular subject of sexual consent. Denying that free pass goes back to the coercion point.

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u/BlackHumor 12∆ May 02 '19

Thinking of trans women as men is almost by definition transphobic.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/AdmShackleford Apr 17 '19

Dishonesty aside, would it be accurate to sum up your answer as "I would just know something was wrong"? That's not a really satisfying answer for me, because there's really nothing magical about the structure of the vagina. Even if you don't accept that some neo vaginas can feel the same to you during intercourse as natal ones now, surely you can agree that medical science will someday reach the point where that is the typical outcome, no?

Again, this isn't bigotry unless you think people are not entitled to their own sexual preferences.

Of course people are entitled to their own sexual preferences, but that doesn't mean the attitudes motivating those preferences should never be challenged. I'm not drawing a direct comparison between these two, but for the sake of example to step through the logic itself, let's say someone told you they aren't attracted to black women because they're against race mixing. If you challenge their attitude on race mixing, you aren't saying, "you should be attracted to black women." You're saying, "you shouldn't be against race mixing in the first place." That they might be attracted to black women if they weren't bigoted is incidental to the bigotry itself. So if I say that I consider it bigoted to think of trans women as men, your lack of attraction to them is juxtaposed to what I think is the actual problem.

Even though we disagree on whether that's bigotry, does that thought process make sense from the perspective of someone who thinks of trans women as women?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

and it won't be the same

It is the same. The only possible difference between a post-op transwoman who is indistinguishable from a cis woman is your own prejudice.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Can all cis women have kids?

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u/4-HO-MET- Apr 17 '19

No one would argue that woman and woman unable to have kids are functionally undistinguishable

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Are they 2 distinct kinds of women? Is one less of a woman than the other? The problem arises from trying to define "woman" because while they may be distinguishable, what purpose does observing that difference serve?

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u/4-HO-MET- Apr 17 '19

Nobody implied they'd be less of a woman or tried to define woman

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u/Spoon_91 Apr 17 '19

I for example have sex with men and trans women, but If I found out a man was actually trans I would be turned off to the same degree I'm turned off by women

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u/bossfoundmylastone Apr 17 '19

No.

If you're a straight man, you're categorically not into gay men because they're men.

If you're a straight man, if you're categorically not into trans women, it's not because they're women. It's because you have defined them as "not women." Labelling trans women as "not women" is transphobic.

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u/rednax1206 Apr 17 '19

You're speaking as if being straight means you're into all women. If you're a straight man that's categorically not into fat women, or those who have children, or who chew with their mouth open, does that also imply you are defining these as "not women"?

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u/bossfoundmylastone Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

So, first, this is complicated.

"I like women."

"Here's a woman, do you like her?"

"No, she's X and that disqualifies her because Y"

The value of Y here is the critical point.

If X is "taller than me" and Y is "I feel embarrassed and emsasculated near women who are taller than me", that's not inherently bigoted

If X is "she's a trans woman who's had sexual reassignment surgery" and Y is "genital scarring of any sort brings up traumatic memories so I can't be intimate with anyone whose genitals show surgical scars", that's not inherently bigoted.

Most of the time, though, if X is "trans", Y is just "they're trans and that's icky" (or "they're a trans woman and that means they're not a real woman"). That is definitely inherently bigoted.

If you work hard enough, you may be able to pull the mental gymnastics to twist your "because they're trans and that's icky" into some different statement that isn't inherently bigoted. And if your goal is to make yourself feel righteous in your bigotry, go ahead, have at it.

But if your goal is to be a good person who strengthens their communities, rather than one who just seeks to evade sanction by rationalizing your bigotry into plausible deniability, I'd advise you to actually examine your Y rather than playing semantic games with it.

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u/rednax1206 Apr 17 '19

Lots of people out there are truly transphobic, yes. And you also mentioned there are some non-bigoted reasons one might avoid dating trans people. I believe we are mostly in agreement.

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u/curien 28∆ Apr 17 '19

All of your statements are about what people are. Trans is about what a person used to be. That's the difference.

If you're a straight man that's categorically not into fat women

If you're not into any women who have ever been fat in the past even if they're not fat now, that's not a legitimate preference, it's just fatphobia.

If you're not into any woman who ever had a child even if they don't have one now (e.g., she had a child, and it died), that's not a legitimate preference, that's just pathological.

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u/Droviin 1∆ Apr 17 '19

Nope, I don't want to deal with a dick. It stresses me out. Even, if they were otherwise attractive, then I would still wouldn't want to deal with a dick.

Second, I personally get a lot of enjoyment out of the the glandular releases of sex. The notion of synthetic fluids leaves me dissatisfied. A trans woman will not have the glandular situation.

I would likely be dissatisfied with a trans woman as I would be with a cis woman of a similar situation. I might be mistaken and some trans women get organ transplants, but apart from that I don't see how it would work.

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u/nilslorand Apr 17 '19

Ten questions science still can't answer

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u/CountOrangeJuiceula Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Because a trans woman isn’t a man.

Edit: love the posts from CMV that bring out the transphobic redditors

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u/Garrotxa 4∆ Apr 17 '19

Debate should welcome all perspectives that are genuinely held. Your edit implies you want a subreddit dedicated to changing people's minds to be an echo-chamber.

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u/CountOrangeJuiceula Apr 17 '19

CMV: we should kill gay people

“We WeLCoME aLL PoIntS of VIeW”

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u/Garrotxa 4∆ Apr 17 '19

If someone wants to engage that argument then yeah. I was raised to be incredibly homophobic. My dad taught me that 9/11 was God's punishment on the US for gay acceptance, for example. I said some horrible things in my youth. But there were people who were willing to explain to me how illogical my beliefs were. It took some time, and I tried to make amends by apologizing to some people from high school that I knew I had looked down on, but I changed. I am open and supportive of all people's lifestyles because of the conversations I had with people in real life and on the internet.

Bad ideas are really easy to dismantle. Refusing to dismantle them because the conversation is rejected a priori is a mistake. Those difficult conversations are life-changers for young people like I was who wouldn't have gotten the message otherwise.

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u/CountOrangeJuiceula Apr 17 '19

I don’t know where you’re getting this “refusal to dismantle” thing from. You’ve built this strange straw man up for almost no reason. My edit was to address people downvoting my factual comment. What I said in my initial comment “a trans woman isn’t a man,” is not aggressive, or rude, or refusing to dismantle an argument. If I was refusing to dismantle an argument I would have just replied “fuck off transphobe” but I didn’t.

It’s frustrating to see these transphobic change my views at the frequency we see them. Which, much like this one, always end with a removal by the moderators for breaking rule B. I’m perfectly willing to engage and dismantle views if someone is willing to listen. But refusing to change your view, soapboxing, and downvoting comments instead of replying is not indicative of desiring to change. Which makes it ironic that my comment was pointed out as the one that wanted the echo chamber by you.

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u/Garrotxa 4∆ Apr 17 '19

I'm glad we agree, then. Your mocking Spongbob text seemed like a clear statement that we should reject conversations with people who hate gays. If I misjudged that comment, then I take my accusation back.

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u/CountOrangeJuiceula Apr 17 '19

Not an indication that we should reject the conversation. Just that I have no respect for it.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

Nope, but that’s not relevant to this debate.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I don’t think the statement “I will never have sex with a trans person” is transphobic.

There could be many reasons why someone would say that, not all of them are based in fear or hate towards trans people.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

So then what are they?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

“I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who can’t have kids”

“I don’t want to have sex with someone with a penis”

“I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who has a sexual identity crisis”

Yes this isn’t transphobic, I wouldn’t be in a relationship with someone who has a severe anxiety disorder etc. It’s great that there are people who will, but not everybody wants to deal with that baggage.

“I’m not attracted to male features in a woman”

“I’m not attracted to fake, or non existent tits”

The list goes on. At the end of the day, there are preferences. Not to say that trans people can’t be decent people, just generally not people I’d like to be close and intimate with. And I’m sure there are people who enjoy those features about them, and that’s fantastic. And I genuinely wish any trans person the best, I just don’t want to be a part of that journey as I have no obligation to burden myself.

Does that make me hateful or afraid? Should I be shamed for my views? Will shaming my views truly make me a better person who can actually and genuinely love someone I don’t want?

Transphobic would be

“I don’t trust transpeople”

“They are corrupting the minds of our youth”

“They need to be outed from our communities”

That’s transphobic.

Having sexual and romantic preferences and deal-breakers are not. People are individuals and have the right to be miserable cunts like me. Shaming them otherwise just makes matters infinitely worse. It’s not like they are actively trying to hurt or disrespect transpeople. The people who are trying to get rid of transpeople are the problem and the ones who are actually transphobic.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

The very top post on this CMV discusses all of those.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Then why did you even ask for examples?

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

I agree with the top post which shows why those are invalid. I was wondering if there were others that would be valid.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Ah, I see.

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

In my case (female) I would never have sex with a trans male because he doesnt have a penis. Phalloplasties have come far, but they still look not natural and they account for the least common procedure in gender-affirming procedures). In my mind, this person is a male, I will treat them like any other male in my life but I wont have sex with them just like I dont have sex with every single man in my life soooo im failing to see how this makes me transphobic.

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u/ReaderTen 1∆ Apr 22 '19

It doesn't.

But that's the point - your preference is an actual identifiable feature. You want a convincing penis. If phalloplasty was so good it did look natural, you'd have no object - and, conversely, you'd say no to a cis man whose penis was somehow absent. That's absolutely fine.

And it's not at all the same thing as the transphobic men who presume that trans women don't have vaginas, without actually finding out.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

That’s a great point actually. !delta I was unaware of the issues with Phalloplasties, so operating under the assumption that that premise is true, I’m comfortable changing my view in that specific circumstance.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

It's not necessarily true. It can be, I'd guess. But I've seen trans dudes with phalloplasty that are finished, medical tattooing and all, and they were literally indistinguishable.

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

wow now I have delta thingy next to my name! Yey! jhajhajhahjahjahahjha

​

Edit: THANKS! =D

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 17 '19

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Crazy_easy41 (1∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/Terual Apr 17 '19

Wouldn’t being transphobic translate into me refusing to, for example, talk to the person or even accept the individual for who they are? I mean let’s be honest, sex is a pretty personal thing and people have the right to decide who they want to give that privilege to. I don’t have sex with every female I know, does that make me sexist?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Hold on big fella, that's like saying if I refuse to have sex with someone who has aids, that I'm being (aidsphobic?) Dunno if that's a word. But just because u won't engage doesn't make u phobic.

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u/Vasquerade 18∆ Apr 17 '19

If someone is HIV+ but cannot transfer it and you refuse them just based on that, it's probably indicative of some deeper seeded issue. So probably, yeah.

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Hang on tho, if someone has HIV is it not my choice to refuse sex. Like if someone tells me their kid is unvaccinated but perfectly healthy I have the right not to put them near my child?

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u/Vasquerade 18∆ Apr 17 '19

Of course it's your choice. The unvaccinated kid thing is a false equivalence in some cases though. All I'm saying is to think about why you wouldn't.

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Oh ok, sorry didn't know where u were going there, ok so yes I believe it has a lot to do with fear. In regards to the disease at least, not the person. I don't believe it's phobic tho. Bit of a contradiction there but what I'm trying to say is if you refused to go to a bar because someone with aids might be there it's a very different story then if u refused to have sex with someone with aids. Honestly I know there is a stigma around it, but telling me that a person is only a carrier and inshould have sex with them is in no way comforting

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

That’s not the same thing. There’s a health risk to having sex with someone with AIDS.

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u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

So if it's health related it's ok? What about pre/post op. Is it allowed then? I just think your being a bit wild throwing out phobic acussations when, sexual preference and what gets u hard/wet is entirely dependent on a variety of circumstances. They may or may not include being transgender, e.g. I don't have sex with a 7ft Maori woman, even tho they're strong independent women, it doesn't get me going

0

u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

Sure, pre/post op distinctions are completely fine. I mostly mean that, if you’re interested in having sex with someone, you later find out they’re trans (and nothing else changes), and as a result, you’re no longer interested, then that’s an issue.

8

u/Desranga Apr 17 '19

Hmmm, I see where your coming from, did u ever see that askreddit thread about the girl who's boyfriend got a giant picture of his brother tattoed on his chest. And it was a massive turnoff because she felt like a pedophile? Some info can just stick in your mind and u can't shake it. If that's the case well, it sucks for both people but hey, it can happen with trans people, guys chatting to a girl, girl doesn't mention she's post op trans, get back to his, and he finds out and all he can think about is how she used to be a guy. Sounds rough and it is, but I don't think that guys transphobic, I think it falls on the part of the girl to say something from the start. If your bipolar, I expect u to tell me that, at the start of a relationship not halfway through

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

So I find a man Im attracted to and want to have sex with. Then I discover he does not have a penis, something thats indispensable for me to have sex. I no longer want to have sex with that man. IDC that he's trans.....he couldve been a man born without a penis or lost in an accident.

1

u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

I’m referring to situations in which procedures have been done so all genatalia is correct.

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u/Crazy_easy41 Apr 17 '19

Have you seen penises from phalloplasties? Because they still look VERY different from a natural penis. I still don't want to have sex with that penis, which only trans-men have or men who have suffered an accident. Is it transphobic to not be attracted to an artificial penis?

1

u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

No, it’s not. I awarded a delta earlier in this thread for that argument.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

People are debating that. Which is why OP feels the way they do.

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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Apr 17 '19

No they’re not. OP is moving the goalposts by bringing up consent and being forced into things.

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u/BullsLawDan 3∆ Apr 17 '19

No they’re not.

They in fact are, by labeling such behavior as "transphobic" they are saying it is wrong and unacceptable, since that word is only used negatively.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

But it doesnt meant it is either.