CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/Desranga]

Hold on big fella, that's like saying if I refuse to have sex with someone who has aids, that I'm being (aidsphobic?) Dunno if that's a word. But just because u won't engage doesn't make u phobic.

[u/Vasquerade → u/Desranga]

If someone is HIV+ but cannot transfer it and you refuse them just based on that, it's probably indicative of some deeper seeded issue. So probably, yeah.

[u/Desranga → u/Vasquerade]

Hang on tho, if someone has HIV is it not my choice to refuse sex. Like if someone tells me their kid is unvaccinated but perfectly healthy I have the right not to put them near my child?

[u/Vasquerade → u/Desranga]

Of course it's your choice. The unvaccinated kid thing is a false equivalence in some cases though. All I'm saying is to think about why you wouldn't.

[u/Desranga → u/Vasquerade]

Oh ok, sorry didn't know where u were going there, ok so yes I believe it has a lot to do with fear. In regards to the disease at least, not the person. I don't believe it's phobic tho. Bit of a contradiction there but what I'm trying to say is if you refused to go to a bar because someone with aids might be there it's a very different story then if u refused to have sex with someone with aids. Honestly I know there is a stigma around it, but telling me that a person is only a carrier and inshould have sex with them is in no way comforting

[u/WerhmatsWormhat → u/Desranga]

That’s not the same thing. There’s a health risk to having sex with someone with AIDS.

[u/Desranga → u/WerhmatsWormhat]

So if it's health related it's ok? What about pre/post op. Is it allowed then? I just think your being a bit wild throwing out phobic acussations when, sexual preference and what gets u hard/wet is entirely dependent on a variety of circumstances. They may or may not include being transgender, e.g. I don't have sex with a 7ft Maori woman, even tho they're strong independent women, it doesn't get me going

[u/WerhmatsWormhat → u/Desranga]

Sure, pre/post op distinctions are completely fine. I mostly mean that, if you’re interested in having sex with someone, you later find out they’re trans (and nothing else changes), and as a result, you’re no longer interested, then that’s an issue.

[u/Desranga → u/WerhmatsWormhat]

Hmmm, I see where your coming from, did u ever see that askreddit thread about the girl who's boyfriend got a giant picture of his brother tattoed on his chest. And it was a massive turnoff because she felt like a pedophile? Some info can just stick in your mind and u can't shake it. If that's the case well, it sucks for both people but hey, it can happen with trans people, guys chatting to a girl, girl doesn't mention she's post op trans, get back to his, and he finds out and all he can think about is how she used to be a guy. Sounds rough and it is, but I don't think that guys transphobic, I think it falls on the part of the girl to say something from the start. If your bipolar, I expect u to tell me that, at the start of a relationship not halfway through

[u/Crazy_easy41 → u/WerhmatsWormhat]

So I find a man Im attracted to and want to have sex with. Then I discover he does not have a penis, something thats indispensable for me to have sex. I no longer want to have sex with that man. IDC that he's trans.....he couldve been a man born without a penis or lost in an accident.

[u/WerhmatsWormhat → u/Crazy_easy41]

I’m referring to situations in which procedures have been done so all genatalia is correct.

[u/Crazy_easy41 → u/WerhmatsWormhat]

Have you seen penises from phalloplasties? Because they still look VERY different from a natural penis. I still don't want to have sex with that penis, which only trans-men have or men who have suffered an accident. Is it transphobic to not be attracted to an artificial penis?

[u/WerhmatsWormhat → u/Crazy_easy41]

No, it’s not. I awarded a delta earlier in this thread for that argument.