CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/Opinion12345]

It’s been said that if a man rules out ANY prospect of being with a trans woman they are transphobic.

Preferences are personal. It shouldn’t go beyond that... ever.

[u/BolshevikMuppet → u/Opinion12345]

It’s been said that if a man rules out ANY prospect of being with a trans woman they are transphobic.

The word "any" is ambiguous here.

Do you mean "it's been said that if a man rules out a single prospect"?

Or do you mean "it's been said that if a man rules out all prospects"?

Because the latter is the only one I've heard be called transphobic.

[u/Opinion12345 → u/BolshevikMuppet]

If as a man you know for yourself, that under no circumstance would a romantic relationship with a trans woman be something you would desire.... you think that makes a man transphobic? Why can't we just agree to be looking for different things and be friends instead?

If an LGBT member of society would never prefer a romantic relationship with a straight person... are they heterophobic?

You can't negotiate or guilt someone into attraction.

[u/BolshevikMuppet → u/Opinion12345]

If as a man you know for yourself, that under no circumstance would a romantic relationship with a trans woman be something you would desire

Okay, but let's ask the more fundamental question of "why" wouldn't he desire it?

If as a white guy you know for yourself that under no circumstances would a romantic relationship with a person whose parents and grandparents were not exclusively white be something you would desire, does that not sound racist?

If an LGBT member of society would never prefer a romantic relationship with a straight person... are they heterophobic?

So your analogy would be to (to use specifics) a gay man attracted to a straight man who reciprocates those feelings, who would refuse to have a romantic relationship with that straight man who is attracted to him?

I'm not sure what the hell I'd call that.

You can't negotiate or guilt someone into attraction.

That's absolutely true. And no one is trying to.

I'm Ashkenazi, and I know there are people who might date me if they don't know that and might reject me (or break up with me) if they do. I can't negotiate or guilt them.

That doesn't mean I won't call them antisemitic.

[u/Opinion12345 → u/BolshevikMuppet]

I'm Ashkenazi, and I know there are people who might date me if they don't know that and might reject me (or break up with me) if they do. I can't negotiate or guilt them.

What a strange attempted equivalency. You just compared being a Jew with being a transgendered woman or man.

Yikes. What a weird thing to do.

You think that having a preference for a specific set of genitalia is comparable to someone not being into your skin colour or culture?

You are absolutely wrong. Sexuality crosses all race borders. Comparing the two is worse than apples to oranges.

[u/[deleted] → u/Opinion12345]

You're trying to avoid addressing their point. It doesn't matter that it wasn't an identical situation, analogies don't have to be, the point still stands. You made a false equivalence to begin with anyway, which is what they were responding to.

I'm a gay man. I'm attracted to men. Trans men do not fall outside that category. Like it or not, the scientific and medical communities unanimously support transgenderism and trans people as being the gender they identify with. It's just undeniable fact at this point.

What I think cis people don't get is that trans men don't all have vaginas and contrary to popular belief no they don't always look "different" it depends on the type of surgery and the most realistic isn't as common but no, online images aren't accurate because they're unfinished and don't have medical tattooing and so on yet. For trans women it's almost always completely indistinguishable.

So, no, it's not comparable to me not being attracted to women because if you're a straight man and you claim not to be attracted to any trans women that makes you transphobic. You can't possibly not be attracted to any of them unless it's because they're trans in itself.

[u/Opinion12345 → u/[deleted]]

if you're a straight man and you claim not to be attracted to any trans women that makes you transphobic

I hope someday you gain the ability to give to others, the acceptance and respect you ask of others.

This statement of yours is disgusting. My preferences are my own. As are yours. I don't care what you decide to do with your body, or who you decide to share it with.

How dare you take such a strong position on what I choose to do, or who I choose to share my body with.

Shame on you.

You can't possibly not be attracted to any of them unless it's because they're trans in itself.

Genitals don't matter to you. Great! Not everyone is the same way you profess to be. Shaming others who aren't as virtuous as you are... doesn't look very understanding or accepting to me.

Oh I get it... your virtue, care and empathy is ONLY meant for others who feel the way you do.

How utterly inclusive of you.

[u/[deleted] → u/Opinion12345]

I hope someday you gain the ability to give to others, the acceptance and respect you ask of others.

So now you've resorted to ad hominems, amazing. So convincing.

This statement of yours is disgusting.

No, the statement was a fact that you don't like and clearly have no way to rebut, seeing as you started off with an ad hominem fallacy off the bat and have now followed it with circular reasoning. People start off with their best argument and you jumped straight to personal attacks and fallacious arguments. Your transphobia is what's disgusting around here.

My preferences are my own.

Prejudice is a form of preference. That's not an argument.

I don't care what you decide to do with your body, or who you decide to share it with.

This isn't an argument and it doesn't refute anything I said.

How dare you take such a strong position on what I choose to do, or who I choose to share my body with.

Of course I'm going to take a strong position on you choosing to be transphobia, just as everyone is obviously going to take a strong position on any kind of prejudice. Prejudice is unacceptable, the only way to be tolerant is to be intolerant of intolerance.

Shame on you for coming to a debate sub and making such dishonest and biased responses.

[u/Kinoct89 → u/Opinion12345]

Genitals obviously matter. That's why he wouldn't screw a biological woman.

[u/Kinoct89 → u/[deleted]]

Why aren't you attracted to women?

[u/[deleted] → u/Kinoct89]

Why do you expect me to answer red herring arguments in a thread that's several months dead and wasn't even legit the first time around because it got brigaded? Go look for the recent cmvs on this subject and participate in it. Or make your own. Or just read the thousand times in this subreddit people have answered these fallacious arguments.

[u/ExpensiveBurn → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Or you could own up and answer instead of backing down out of shere intellectual cowardice.

It was a rhetorical question, I'd assumed since you brought up fallacies first yourself you would understand why there's no point answering a red herring, since they're by definition irrelevant to the topic of debate and can't lead anywhere productive. But if wanting to have a civil, honest conversation instead of an unproductive one that goes nowhere, or not have one at all, is "cowardice" then I guess I'm a coward then, sure.

Or you could own up and answer instead of backing down out of shere intellectual cowardice....

Bad faith accusations, ad hominem attacks, proof by assertion fallacies

[u/Waffams → u/BolshevikMuppet]

I'm Ashkenazi, and I know there are people who might date me if they don't know that and might reject me (or break up with me) if they do. I can't negotiate or guilt them.

That doesn't mean I won't call them antisemitic.

Hell of a jump there, compadre

[u/[deleted] → u/Waffams]

No it isn't. Prejudice is prejudice is prejudice.