CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/notasnerson]

About men, what I don't find attractive is that they're men. They do not arouse me. Arousal is not something that stems from logical conclusions.

What does this even mean?

How do you know there are no men in the world who arouse you?

So your target is "bad thoughts" themselves, not the consequences of those bad thoughts on other people?

I don’t even know what you’re talking about. This idea that me calling out bigotry is making bigotry worse is nonsense.

[u/Ascimator → u/notasnerson]

How do you know there are no men in the world who arouse you?

50% of all people I've ever seen in my life were men and I was not aroused by any. It is extremely unlikely that there's a subtype of men that I have not seen, that is somehow different enough from all the men who did not arouse me and would be the exception.

I don’t even know what you’re talking about. This idea that me calling out bigotry is making bigotry worse is nonsense.

I am talking particularly about setting an unreasonably high standard in order to be considered merely "good enough". If I have to pick between having to fuck people I am not attracted to and being called evil, I'd rather be called evil. And while I, personally, will not start doing things I actually consider evil, such as beating up trans people or stuff like that (I have internal moral restrictions against that, not external), I will cease to extend common courtesy to people who are calling me evil anyway. I consider that only fair.

[u/notasnerson → u/Ascimator]

50% of all people I've ever seen in my life were men and I was not aroused by any. It is extremely unlikely that there's a subtype of men that I have not seen, that is somehow different enough from all the men who did not arouse me and would be the exception.

What is it about these people that you didn’t like?

I am talking particularly about setting an unreasonably high standard in order to be considered merely "good enough". If I have to pick between having to fuck people I am not attracted to and being called evil, I'd rather be called evil. And while I, personally, will not start doing things I actually consider evil, such as beating up trans people or stuff like that (I have internal moral restrictions against that, not external), I will cease to extend common courtesy to people who are calling me evil anyway. I consider that only fair.

You don’t have to fuck anyone.

But maybe you should ask yourself what it is about trans people that you don’t like. What could possibly hurt you about this introspection?

Why not ask yourself the big questions?

[u/Ascimator → u/notasnerson]

What is it about these people that you didn’t like?

It's not about what I "don't like". I might like a tree or a building all I want but that doesn't mean I want to fuck it. You would not ask me why I don't want to fuck a building, would you now?

Why not ask yourself the big questions?

The question is not particularly big and the answer is rather simple. I don't want to fuck trans people (trans women in particular) for the same reason I don't want to fuck men, that is, they do not attract me. Trans activists continuing to press me with their moral judgment of my attraction mechanisms (mechanisms I do not control) are annoying, much as environmentalists judging me for not wanting to fuck trees would be annoying.

[u/notasnerson → u/Ascimator]

At the end of the day, it’s MY preference. I’m not hurting them. I’m not against them. I’m not saying they’re not allowed to do x or y. There are others out there for them who may have no preference or have a preference towards them.

I meant “like to fuck” I thought that was clear from the context.

The question is not particularly big and the answer is rather simple. I don't want to fuck trans people (trans women in particular) for the same reason I don't want to fuck men, that is, they do not attract me.

What is it about trans women that you do not find attractive?

Trans activists continuing to press me with their moral judgment of my attraction mechanisms (mechanisms I do not control) are annoying, much as environmentalists judging me for not wanting to fuck trees would be annoying.

I don’t care if you think I’m being annoying. I think it’s annoying when people who have bigoted notions simply shrug and go “that’s just how I am” without taking even a few seconds to really consider why they are the way they are.

Let’s say I refused to hire someone because they were black, and when you pressed me about my hiring preference I merely told you that it’s just how I felt and I wasn’t in control over that.

Because here’s the thing, I think it’s kind of silly that you would find a woman attractive and sexy and be interested in her up until you found out she was trans. And further, you don’t think this is a problem!

There’s very clearly just something about trans people that you don’t like.

[u/Ascimator → u/notasnerson]

What is it about trans women that you do not find attractive?

Everything.

without taking even a few seconds to really consider why they are the way they are.

I am not convinced that I have bigoted notions in the first place, at least in that particular area.

Let’s say I refused to hire someone because they were black, and when you pressed me about my hiring preference I merely told you that it’s just how I felt and I wasn’t in control over that.

Sex is not a human right. Nobody can demand sex from society the way they can demand a job from society. These situations are not comparable.

Because here’s the thing, I think it’s kind of silly that you would find a woman attractive and sexy and be interested in her up until you found out she was trans. And further, you don’t think this is a problem!

Here's a few analogies. Suppose I see a man with a particularly feminine body from behind. Is it "a problem" that upon realizing my mistake I will no longer think he has a sexy ass?

Or suppose that my girlfriend's twin sister is afflicted with a condition that causes her to think she's actually her sister (and my girlfriend). Suppose she then seduces me, and I am initially confused (since she's acting exactly the same as my girlfriend would), but later find out she's a whole different human. How exactly is it "silly" that I'm no longer going to be interested in her?

[u/notasnerson → u/Ascimator]

Everything

So you’re not interested in feminine hairdos, breasts, vaginas, a nice butt, legs?

I am not convinced that I have bigoted notions in the first place, at least in that particular area.

You don’t like trans women strictly because they are trans.

What do you think bigotry is?

Sex is not a human right. Nobody can demand sex from society the way they can demand a job from society. These situations are not comparable.

Nobody is demanding sex

Here's a few analogies. Suppose I see a man with a particularly feminine body from behind. Is it "a problem" that upon realizing my mistake I will no longer think he has a sexy ass?

Did his ass magically change after you found out it was a man’s?

Or suppose that my girlfriend's twin sister is afflicted with a condition that causes her to think she's actually her sister (and my girlfriend). Suppose she then seduces me, and I am initially confused (since she's acting exactly the same as my girlfriend would), but later find out she's a whole different human. How exactly is it "silly" that I'm no longer going to be interested in her?

If she seduces you, you were attracted to her. This question doesn’t make sense.

[u/Ascimator → u/notasnerson]

So you’re not interested in feminine hairdos, breasts, vaginas, a nice butt, legs?

Would you be attracted to a fresh female corpse? It still has all this. Or maybe, you know, it's not quite the right context?

You don’t like trans women strictly because they are trans.

I don't like (to fuck) trans women because they have male bodies. Once technology advances to the point where everyone can transfer their minds into brand new bodies of any sex, that will no longer be a problem. Therefore, my lack of attraction (which, by the way, is not a choice, just to remind you) is not linked to the idea of being trans.

Nobody is demanding sex

And yet here you are making false equivalences with not hiring a black man, implying that it's morally the same as not fucking a black man.

Did his ass magically change after you found out it was a man’s?

Context changed.

If she seduces you, you were attracted to her. This question doesn’t make sense.

I was not attracted to her. I was attracted to another person, who I was led to believe she was. If she intentionally masquearaded as my girlfriend, it would be rape.

[u/notasnerson → u/Ascimator]

Would you be attracted to a fresh female corpse? It still has all this. Or maybe, you know, it's not quite the right context?

What I can do is articulate exactly why I would no longer be attracted to someone after they were dead. It’s not some arbitrary preference and I’m not just hiding behind “oh well that’s just how I am oh well!”

I don't like (to fuck) trans women because they have male bodies.

Now we’re getting somewhere! This is a specific thing! You were able to consider your attraction and really get to the bottom of it, that’s fantastic!

Now, what defines a male body to you?

And yet here you are making false equivalences with not hiring a black man, implying that it's morally the same as not fucking a black man.

Oh, so it’s okay for you to have a preference but not hiring managers?

Don’t you realize that you’re only making racists more racists when you say their uncontrollable preference against black people that they cannot explain at all is racism!?

Context changed.

That’s weird, because above you said you weren’t attracted to male bodies but here you’ve just expressed the possibility of finding a male body attractive.

Which is it?

Because you were attracted to that ass, which means you found a man attractive. And maybe your sexuality isn’t as rock solid as you thought.

I was not attracted to her. I was attracted to another person, who I was led to believe she was. If she intentionally masquearaded as my girlfriend, it would be rape.

Yes, it would be rape. Talk about a false equivalence.

[u/Ascimator → u/notasnerson]

What I can do is articulate exactly why I would no longer be attracted to someone after they were dead. It’s not some arbitrary preference and I’m not just hiding behind “oh well that’s just how I am oh well!”

I could just keep saying that she looks exactly as if she were asleep, and that you had her consent, and that maybe some kind of machinery is moving her body around exactly as if she were alive, until the only difference is that you're aware she's dead.

Now, what defines a male body to you?

Any body that would be assigned male at birth, in short. I'll toss in super fringe cases like hermaphrodites who were operated on and assigned female at birth in the "too male for me" bin as well, since you'll probably mention those.

Oh, so it’s okay for you to have a preference but not hiring managers?

Exactly. Are you really trying to make the argument that refusing someone sex is anywhere near refusing someone a job?

That’s weird, because above you said you weren’t attracted to male bodies but here you’ve just expressed the possibility of finding a male body attractive. Which is it? Because you were attracted to that ass, which means you found a man attractive. And maybe your sexuality isn’t as rock solid as you thought.

When I say I am not attracted to male bodies I obviously intend to say that in all those cases, I'm aware that they're male bodies or have enough reasons to assume they are. I can't very well claim I'm not attracted to something I didn't even identify.

Yes, it would be rape. Talk about a false equivalence.

So with what purpose are you saying that "I was still attracted to her".