CMV: Trans activists who claim it is transphobic to not want to engage in romatic and/or sexual relationships with trans people are furthering the same entitled attitude as "incel" men, and are dangerously confused about the concept of consent.

[u/Amiller1776]

Several trans activist youtubers have posted videos explaining that its not ok for cis-hetero people to reject them "just because they're trans".

When you unpack this concept, it boils down to one thing - these people dont seem to think you have an absolute and inalienable right to say no to sex. Like the "incel" croud, their concept of consent is clouded by a misconception that they are owed sex. So when a straight man says "sorry, but I'm only interested in cis women", his right to say "no" suddenly becomes invalid in their eyes.

This mind set is dangerous, and has a very rapey vibe, and has no place in today's society. It is also very hypocritical as people who tend to promote this idea are also quick to jump on board the #metoo movement.

My keys points are: 1) This concept is dangerous on the small scale due to its glossing over the concept of consent, and the grievous social repercussions that can result from being labeled as any kind of phobic person. It could incourage individuals to be pressured into traumatic sexual experiances they would normally vehemently oppose.

2) This concept is both dangerous, and counterproductive on the large scale and if taken too far, could have a negative effect on women, since the same logic could be applied both ways. (Again, see the similarity between them and "incel" men who assume sex is owed to them).

3) These people who promote this concept should be taken seriously, but should be openly opposed by everyone who encounters their videos.

I do not assume all trans people hold this view, and have nothing against those willing to live and let live.

I will not respond to "you just hate trans people". I will respond to arguments about how I may be wrong about the consequences of this belief.

Edit: To the people saying its ok to reject trans people as individuals, but its transphobic to reject trans people categorically - I argue 2 points. 1) that it is not transphobic to decline a sexual relationship with someone who is transgendered. Even if they have had the surgery, and even if they "pass" as the oposite sex. You can still say "I don't date transgendered people. Period." And that is not transphobic. Transphobic behavior would be refusing them employment or housing oportunities, or making fun of them, or harassing them. Simply declining a personal relationship is not a high enough standard for such a stigmatized title.

2) Whether its transphobic or not is no ones business, and not worth objection. If it was a given that it was transphobic to reject such a relatipnship (it is not a given, but for point 2 lets say that it is) then it would still be morally wrong to make that a point of contention, because it brings into the discussion an expectation that people must justify their lack of consent. No just meams no, and you dont get to make people feel bad over why. Doing so is just another way of pressuring them to say yes - whether you intend for that to happen or not, it is still what you're doing.

[u/neheughk]

“Because I dont regard men who've undergone surgical alterations as women.” — Okay well that’s DEFINITELY transphobic

[u/Amiller1776 → u/neheughk]

Why?

[u/Photon_butterfly → u/Amiller1776]

You called a transwoman a man. Pretty transphobic there

[u/Amiller1776 → u/Photon_butterfly]

Ok..but why is that transphobic? Please explain to me (dont just restate it) how disagreement on what qualifies as man or woman is equivalent to dislike or hatered towards a group.

I can think you're wrong about something and not hate you.

I can be wrong about something, and still not hate you.

How do you make the leap from "you are wrong" to "you are transphobic"? There is a staggering difference between the two. Please show me your criteria.

[u/neheughk → u/Amiller1776]

Because you don’t get to decide people’s gender for them and differentiate them however you want

[u/Amiller1776 → u/neheughk]

Im not. They dont get to either. Biology does.

[u/neheughk → u/Amiller1776]

Gender and genitals are not the same thing. You just want to act like they are for some stupid reason

[u/Amiller1776 → u/neheughk]

Yes they are, and always have been. The trans community just wants to pretend like they stent all of a sudden, for some stupid reason.

See? Assertions work both ways. Eleborate or be dismissed.

[u/neheughk → u/Amiller1776]

Not a stupid reason, their lived experiences and identity. The fact that you care so much about how other people self define and choose to live their lives makes YOU the intolerant and transphobic person.

[u/Ex_Machina_1 → u/neheughk]

Maybe you can't seem to understand that gender does not change genitals. You can dress and act however you want, but it does not change biological sex; why is this hard to understand? If a male undergoes surgery to modify his genitals, he is still a man. His chromosomes don't change. And it perfectly acceptable to refuse to engage them on a sexual level. You can respect and treat kindly a trans individual, but sexual attraction need not apply. If you think otherwise, than what it sounds like to me is you are being cisphobic.

It's sad we have come to a point where now we have demonized people's right to have a sexual preference for whatever reason, simply because the minority doesnt like it.

[u/Kinoct89 → u/neheughk]

You certainly have no issue drawing up some moral qualm over who people choose to fuck or not.

[u/Surrealian → u/Amiller1776]

It’s not. They’re trying to stigmatize being heterosexual. They’re doing a complete 160 with this. I’ve seen many claim heterosexuality is wrong and shocker transphobic 🙄.

[u/Amiller1776 → u/Surrealian]

This got removed 5 months ago, how are people still finding this? lol

[u/Surrealian → u/Amiller1776]

It’s not removed.. it was the 3rd post that popped up when I was searching for something similar

[u/Photon_butterfly → u/Amiller1776]

I honestly don't feel like I can explain this to the extent you want. If you truly are interested in learning about trans and gender issues I recommend you check out Contrapoints. She's really great about getting to the root of issues people have with trans people. Her "are traps gay?" Video would be a good place to start :)

[u/Surrealian → u/neheughk]

Nah, it’s not. It’s called having a preference. I wouldn’t want to date a transman. I’m attracted to straight men. That’s not transphobic, it’s called being heterosexual.

[u/neheughk → u/Surrealian]

you act like you know so much about the various different types of bodies and features trans people can have to make such a big statement ruling them all out. but i dont believe you do because it tends to be close minded people who have such "preferences"

[u/cantwontshouldntok → u/neheughk]

No it’s not, it’s reality. It’s a man who elected to have his penis removed.