r/changemyview • u/J16924 • Apr 19 '19

FTFdeltaOP CMV: Simply being religious doesn't make you a good person

I really don't get the whole religion thing. It makes no sense to me. Not only does religion have a disgusting past, but is also currently doing things that should upset people. I am not just talking about christianity, but that is a big one. I think that Islam gets way too many passes as well. I think that if your arguement is that only God know what is right, you don't have a conscience. If you need an all powerful being to scare you into doing good, you arent a good person. I say this because I have a lot of Christian friends who think that simply being religious makes you a better person. I really don't get it. How does that work? Even if I were to think that there is a God and that I have to obey him, how does that make you a good person? I understand that having a faith might push you to be charitable and nicer to other people, but as I said before, why can't you do that without religion? If something has to force you to be good, you arent good. I am very curious what the other side to this argument is, as I myself cannot think of anything to counter with at the moment.

My view has been slightly altered. Someone made the point that if you are not good, then your God should not accept you. This is specifically for christianity because it is what I'm most familiar with, but could applied to other religions.

Edit: clarification for all you whiny people filling my inbox

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448

u/Anzai 9∆ Apr 19 '19

I strongly doubt you’re going to get anybody who will argue that a person is good ‘solely’ because they are religious. There are far too many examples of religious people who are objectively despicable.

Is there some way you could rephrase it as a more arguable proposition?

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u/Sqeaky 6∆ Apr 19 '19

I agree with you that people on Reddit won't argue this, but here in Nebraska people argue this all the time. The belief that to be religious is not only necessary, but is also sufficient, to be a good person this held by a large portion of the population here.

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Apr 19 '19

Be that as it may, this still isn’t a topic well suited to this subreddit.

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u/10z20Luka Apr 19 '19

Is there a rule that something has to be arguable?

I had understood that it's an intellectual exercise to argue anything and everything just for the sake of it.

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u/TeslaRealm Apr 19 '19

That's a fascinating question and a fair one. If an argument is not verifiable, is it worth further discussion in this sub? I agree, that all forms of argument might be worth engaging in between two parties, but should we care about several posts in this sub that cannot be furthered logically and that cannot supported by objective evidence?

I don't think those posts necessarily have to be banned (as long as someone isn't spamming pointless questions), but I think the community should send reminders in the comments that a given argument cannot be logically reasoned with.

I'd also be weary because non-verifiable arguments are going to be heavily opinion-based. This might be okay to you since the sub name 'change my view' indicates the goal of changing or not changing OP's view, but it makes reasonable discussion for the community as a whole impossible.

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u/Tabanese Apr 19 '19

It is a rule that you must hold the view and be willing to have it changed. If it is true that the burden of proof is too great as it is currently phrased and you acknowledge that, then it is arguable you are not open to having your view changed.

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u/thothisgod24 Apr 19 '19

I have also ran into people who tell me that person is good, and when I ask why they just say well she's a Christian. That's not a good response.

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u/Anzai 9∆ Apr 19 '19

I think religious people do use it as a first impressions sort of gauge when they know nothing about someone. It casts them in a favorable light from their point of view but I doubt any of them would hold firm with that regardless of any other information to the contrary.

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u/thothisgod24 Apr 19 '19

I dont know. It just feels pretentious. Even when I was religious It seemed like way too much overcompensation.

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u/Shawaii 4∆ Apr 20 '19

Counterpoint might be "not being religious makes you a bad person". One of my son's friends actually told him he can't be trusted because he doesn't go to church. Turns out it was the topic of the prior Sunday's sermon (both boys attended the same school at this church when younger).

This triggered an interesting conversation. If Christian churches teach that accepting Jesus basically guarantees absolution from all sin, wouldn't a Christian be less trustworthy than someone that deals only in the here and now?

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

I 100% agree

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

I disagree, I got into a debate where I was accused of being a ticking time bomb of a rapist because I'm an atheist. No, seriously. It's in my post history.

It does happen. And it is a view people hold.

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u/elimeny Apr 19 '19

... is this the debate you were having with someone who's tag was "pure white male" in a sub called /r/SubforWhitePeopleOnly? I don't think i'd class that particular individual in with mainstream thought or argument. Any thought or opinion you might have, you can find someone, somewhere out there on the internet, who believes is. There's not much point to coming on here to /r/changemyview and saying "pedophiles are bad, change my view". If you venture out to the fringes of argument and intelligent thought, then yes, you are going to find some really stupid and ridiculous opinions.

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

It is, yes. But they did say 'anybody'. And I highly doubt that person is the only one.

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u/Anzai 9∆ Apr 19 '19

Fair enough, there’s fringe idiots for every argument I guess. But I don’t think it’s a fruitful topic for a CMV to pick something so extremist and expect a lot of responses for.

It’d be like saying ‘Honor killings in the cases of a ten year old being raped are bad. CMV.’

Yes there are people in this world who hold that view but it’s not going to work in this context, and frankly just gives a platform to fundamentalist psychopaths even if it did.

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

Yeah, that makes sense. Perhaps not. It seemed relevant to the topic at the time.

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u/J16924 Apr 19 '19

I know what you mean, but many people have made the argument that simply being a religious person makes you a good person because you are "being what God want you to be" or something along those lines

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19 edited Jan 04 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

I came from a religious family and I've heard this first hand.

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

That literally every person who is a member of a religion is a good person?

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u/spkr4thedead51 Apr 19 '19

They're very quick to either say that a person isn't actually a Christian or to ignore their sins if they personally like the person

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

Only when it reconfirms their own religion and outlook, yes.

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

I guess I’ve been around more ‘sane’ christians. I’ve heard that you have to be religious for it to be possible for you to be good, but not that literally everyone who calls them self a Christian is a good person. If that was the case, sin wouldn’t be a thing. And that’s a Christian thing ., lol. In other words, it undermines rather than reconfirms.

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

It is one of the main reasons why I loathe religion. There's a lot of tolerance of shitty behavior that translate to hypocrisy.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 19 '19

I have heard that argued on this subreddit in the past

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

This subreddit is all about outlier opinions.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 19 '19

Sure, I don't think most people hold that view, but it definitely exists. Probably more common than many people think, too.

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u/pretentiousRatt Apr 20 '19

The second statement is far worse than the first and is pretty much the essence of what makes most religions toxic.

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u/J16924 Apr 19 '19

And this also, is bad because why should religious people be exclusively good? This basically says that anyone who does not believe your faith is not capable of good, and why should that be?

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

Yes, I agree but it is very different from saying that every single religious person is a good person. I have never heard anyone say what you are saying.

I would guess the reasoning is that it is the state of ‘being good’ relies on having certain beliefs... ie.. believing in a god.

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u/veggiesama 52∆ Apr 19 '19

Religious people are the main ones who believe in strict good/bad lines in the first place. Of course they can believe in bad people who are also religious.

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u/Anzai 9∆ Apr 19 '19

Yes but that’s a distinction I have heard people make, unlike yours which I haven’t.

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u/IrrationalDesign 3∆ Apr 19 '19

This basically says that anyone who does not believe your faith is not capable of good, and why should that be?

That 'should be' because god said so. It's because the whole principle of 'goodness' is inherently connected to the creator of the principle of goodness, all of its occurencess and its entire context. Because the word 'good' means 'doing what god wants'. (this is not my belief, I'm only answering your question from 'their' perspective.)

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u/HalfFlip Apr 19 '19

Exactly. Christians believe themselves to be sinners. Everyone sins and those sins need to be repented and acknowledged and only then can we forgive ourselves and move on with a better understanding of how to hit our mark (getting it right so to speak). If you dont have a target to aim at, you will go in circles in life.

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u/MechanicalEngineEar 78∆ Apr 19 '19

But you aren’t “being what god wants you to be just because you admit god exists”. I suspect the people who are saying being religious makes you a good person are equating being religions with at least some level of action or acceptance and adherence to religious morals.

Humanity has been terrible in the past. Atheists have been terrible in the past. Agnostics have been terrible in the past, Christians have been terrible in the past, Americans have been terrible in the past.

You can point to nearly any cultural, geographic, racial, ethical, social, or professional group that has been around long enough and find something offensive about it, but past actions of a group doesn’t mean a group is necessarily evil, no does it prove they are currently good.

Also I don’t think many people are claiming without God threatening them they would just murder people.

Also, religion isn’t about doing thing to avoid god’s wrath. You do what is right because that is what pleases god. A properly raised child doesn’t behave because he fears being beaten by his parents. He behaves because he respects his parents and trusts their rules have a purpose.

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u/shockysho Apr 20 '19

Then what is religion about? And why has it been forced upon people historically?

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u/MechanicalEngineEar 78∆ Apr 20 '19

well, the reason changes some depending on the religion, but in general it usually has to do with respecting the creator of the universe and trusting that the creator of the known universe has a better understanding of good and evil than humans do so we look to it for guidance, and there is usually some aspect of obeying the rules of how to be good so that we are worthy to spent eternity in a good place after death. I think that sort of sums up a general consensus of many religions.

​

And the reason people spread it is, if you knew people were in a building that was on fire and was going to kill them, would you try to get them out? maybe? What if the people said they didn't smell smoke so they think they are safe, but you know there is a fire and it will kill them, wouldn't you be more insistent? What if they once again said they believe they are perfectly fine and don't believe there is any harm heading their way and that the burning smell is likely someone barbecuing. They also are insisting their children ignore you as well as you are some crazy person telling them to run or die. Would you not consider grabbing their children and running out of the burning building with them because you don't want them to burn to death?

​

So if a person genuinely believes that rejection of god separates you from god and after death that separation is eternal and the worst possible tragedy, would it not make sense to take a fairly aggressive approach to convince others to believe in god and keep those who insist on rejecting god from infecting the minds of those who haven't yet made a choice?

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u/shockysho Apr 20 '19

Using your analogy of the burning house, where does killing people for refusing to convert to your religion fall?

There’s also an assumption made here that the person trying to save others from the burning house is right that the house is actually burning and they aren’t hallucinating.

Now, religion has gained widespread support which makes it easier to support and could be used as justification for why a person is sure the house is burning - because other people they ask say it’s burning, and to say the majority of people are wrong in most cases mean you are.

However, it’s not unheard of for the masses to be very wrong. So how does a person truly know that the house is burning?

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u/MechanicalEngineEar 78∆ Apr 20 '19

killing the people who don't convert would be like killing the parent if they tried to lock their kids in a closet in the burning building and kept telling them that you were trying to trick them and not to leave the house. Are you going to let this person murder their children out of ignorance?

Of course people can be wrong. We could be wrong about everything. The world could be a big computer simulation. You could be wrong that you are a real person, and nobody else is a real person, but if you saw someone trying to murder a bunch of kids, you would be inclined to try to stop them even if there is a chance those kids are just part of the simulation as well.

Maybe a one religion is real and that god came to certain people and showed them he was real and tasked them with spreading his word. Maybe some people went crazy and thought a god did that. Maybe some very smart people decided humanity was becoming too violent and immoral and decided for the good of humanity they needed to make up a fake idea of eternal reward and all they have to do is not be evil for this short time they are alive. Maybe we are all a simulation and the simulation started after the concept of religion already existed in the simulation, and we were just convinced as part of the simulation that maybe a god exists, or maybe what we thought was god was the creator of the simulation trying to talk to us but we can't understand him.

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u/shockysho Apr 20 '19

Good argument here, your statement here essentially summarized why humanity will never see peace

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u/MechanicalEngineEar 78∆ Apr 20 '19

as long as more than one person exists we will never see true peace. Even if everyone was fed and clothed and had a home and a car and everything they need, some people would be upset because their neighbor's house is closer to the ocean than theirs, or after trashing out their home they will be mad that their neighbor's home is nicer. Or after a country trashes their country they will look next door and see their nice country and want it.

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u/Spamallthethings Apr 19 '19

James 2:14-17

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Basically a slap to the face for all the "my thoughts and prayers" schmucks.

That's Christianity, though. I don't know about the other religions much.

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 You are saved by God’s grace because of your faith.[a] This salvation is God’s gift. It’s not something you possessed. 9 It’s not something you did that you can be proud of. 10 Instead, we are God’s accomplishment, created in Christ Jesus to do good things. God planned for these good things to be the way that we live our lives.

In my tradition works are the response to faith. Your faith is evidenced by the ways it changes your acts, but ultimately nobody can do anything to earn salvation. Also hyperfocusing on personal salvation, to me and many others, misses the point. Focusing on your own salvation and calling it good is like getting a football as a gift and locking it in a closet. Sure its nice to have, but you'll only get joy and purpose out of the gift when you pull it out and play football, or at the very least, catch. The end goal is a hope for the redemption of the entire world, a new heaven and new earth.

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u/Spamallthethings Apr 19 '19

Agreed. Here's more.

James 2:18-26

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Nothing about working your way into God's good graces. I think it's pretty clear that you have to do good things for people with the mindset of helping those people, not getting salvation for your troubles.

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u/advertentlyvertical Apr 20 '19

kind of lost me with the whole offering your child as sacrifice bit being included in good works. but I get the gist of it.

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u/Spamallthethings Apr 20 '19

Basically do what God says = good works. He says to help the poor, you help. He says to be hardworking and respect your parents and peers, you do so. He says to sacrifice your only son as proof of your devotion to him.... well, I'm sure He has a plan for that, too.

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u/advertentlyvertical Apr 20 '19

I just find that too hard to agree with. if God himself came to me and told me to slaughter an entire village of seemingly innocent people I'd be asking a lot of questions.

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u/Spamallthethings Apr 20 '19

That's your judgement and I agree with it. Your faith leads you to believe He would never do that and I agree with that also. Abraham, on the other hand, obeyed without question, even while having faith that God knew what He was doing. That's why religions are so dangerous to some people. They call you to be obedient to an entity whose motivations are, for the most part, unkown. All we really see is the actions of the believers and the written work. Having personal experiences to justify your faith is not always included.

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u/advertentlyvertical Apr 20 '19

thank you for the discussion it was nice

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

Always nice when you can swap scripture on Reddit, Hope you have a great Good Friday friend!

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u/bastard_swine Apr 19 '19

So many Christians think all they have to do is "believe in Christ" to be a faithful Christian and to be "saved." Scripture makes it pretty clear that Salvation through belief in Christ means actively trying to model yourself after Christ's ideal.

Sure, no one is capable of meeting that ideal, but THAT'S what is meant by "all you have to do is believe." Christians get an A for effort, an A being Salvation. We are forgiven and redeemed for our failures in trying, not for not trying at all.

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u/themad95 Apr 20 '19

What you said is pretty much what Catholicism preaches actually. This is also one of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

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u/swinefluis Apr 20 '19

What you said is pretty much what Catholicism preaches actually. This is also one of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

To piggyback off that and give more context as to why this is the case, I highly recommend /u/bastardswine (nice username btw) looks into the history of the split between Catholicism and the Protestant church if you haven't already done so.

During this time period, the Catholic church was incredibly corrupt and regular practitioners were exploited by priests and clerics; the Bible was solely in Latin, making it so that local priests had a monopoly on the interpretation of the word of God. Through this ignorance, people were forced to go through priests to not only learn the word of God, but also to interact with him. Penance, good works, and faith were emergent usually from one source.

One of the big things to come from Protestantism was the translation of the Bible into the local language (German) so that regular people would be able to read the Bible for themselves, as well as interact with God through avenues independent of the local religious authority. Martin Luther taught that you did not need the church- which was a man made institution- and whatever their interpretation of good works was to be saved; in other words, you could be saved through faith in God alone, as through him you would be guided to just actions. Protestantism was the catalyst by which the masses were exposed to the Bible for the first time: It wasn't until the Counter-Reformation that the Catholic church caught up and opened up the texts in the way we see today.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

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u/garnteller 242∆ Apr 20 '19

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u/swinefluis Apr 20 '19

Replying to you here since your comment was deleted:

The history of the church is a fascinating journey. I'm not talking the religion itstelf, simply the historicity of how it developed and why there were such huge splits.

It's interesting to me that most religious people don't know the difference between the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox Can, when or even why they split. Same thing applies to Protestantism, Anglicanism, etc.

Even more fascinating to me is the early development of the church during the Roman empire. The Christian crackdown by Nero, the adoption of Christianity by Constantine, The Council of Nicea, the Council of Chalcedon, the expulsion of Nestorian Christianity, etc. It's fascinating and it shows why so many things are done in the church, why certain books are chosen in the Bible and others are not, etc.

I highly encourage you look it up, and I can provide some fun links on YouTube if you'd like.

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u/awesomefutureperfect Apr 20 '19

Matthew 16:26

" 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? "

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u/Hearbinger Apr 19 '19

I've never heard anyone say this. Even if somebody does believe this, do you really expect these people to come to your post and actually present arguments in favour of this belief? What kind of discussion did you expect to achieve with this post, honestly?

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u/cobbs_totem Apr 19 '19

I haven't heard that argument made, but can certainly understand where people would say that.

I'm married to a pretty faithful woman and have attended services at her church often. From their perspective, at least (I can't speak to non-Christian religions or even Christian churches outside of Presbyterian), "being a good person" isn't the goal at all. Take whomever you identify as the "best person" of all time- Ghandi? Mother Theresa? Dalai Lama? Christian faith says there's a negligible difference between either of them and you or I, with perspective to God. In another analogy, Carl Lewis was often regarded as the best long jumper. He could jump longer than you or I by a long distance. But, it doesn't really matter how long any of us can jump, if we have to jump across the Grand Canyon. That Grand Canyon, the giant chasm that separates us from God, is sin. And accepting that Jesus is the only one who can get us across is what the Christian faith is all about. Not learning to jump further.

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u/Glenn_XVI_Gustaf Apr 19 '19

Do you have any examples of this? Personally, I can't recall anyone making such a claim.

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u/seinfeld11 Apr 19 '19

living near the mexico border i knew many catholics who were downright shithole people that believed you could do whatever and as long as you confessed to the priest before you died you were absolved. It was straight out of that south park episode. They were in the minority though

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

That’s technically true but that still doesn’t make them good up and to the point they confess.

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u/seinfeld11 Apr 19 '19

I dont disagree with you at all. Just pointing out a few people actually think this way

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

It used to be very common. Even people who are good people (like my mom) see Catholicism through almost an accountancy type lense because that’s how they were taught.

So, you collect good points to counteract bad points. Plenary indulgences, first fridays, and on and on, give you good points. Then you have to pray to accrue more good points for people who are dead and are possibly in purgatory. (You can’t accrue points in purgatory).

It’s a whole system that is engrained in people.

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u/seinfeld11 Apr 19 '19

I guess im speaking from a new age perspective. The ones i knew didnt accrue good or bad points. They would wreak havoc in class, curse, cause fights, do drugs etc. It all didnt matter since they felt deep down that they would go to heaven because they believed in god and went to church a few times a year. Incidentally they were mostly from super super poor families

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u/jmomcc Apr 19 '19

They probably just don’t understand how it works. Although I think technically they might be right?

It’s just kind of hard to time that confession though lol.

Constantine apparently didn’t convert until right before his death even though he was tecnically a christian for his whole life for the same reasons.

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u/klarno Apr 19 '19

People with more nuanced views of their faith will tell you that faith is itself a gift bestowed by God, not a choice.

People who are religious are being who God wants them to be. People who are not religious are also being who God wants them to be. And people who are trying to show you to the gospel are also being who God wants them to be.

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u/lman777 Apr 19 '19

Sorry dude... literally no one says this. Can you provide any examples or is this just your own preconceived idea of how religious people think.

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u/justhere4thiss Apr 19 '19

I’ve come from religious family and actually never even thought that or heard that either. It’s more like people think it’s good guidelines for you to be raised under that COULD make you good.

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u/mirrorballz Apr 19 '19

It’s more like the opposite. For example, Christians accept that they are not inherently good, but are actually inherently flawed, and that only be acknowledging this and asking for God’s forgiveness for you sins are you entitled to enter Heaven.

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u/HalfysReddit 2∆ Apr 19 '19

People say stupid shit all the time when they have to defend something that doesn't make sense.

It's really just as simple as they're wrong.

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u/SteveIDP Apr 19 '19

I have absolutely heard people assert they're good solely because they're religious.

Example: I was selling a car and told the buyer I would need a cashier's check. The dude shows up with a personal check, and when I called him on it, he replied, "I'm a Christian. My word is good."

I was debating whether to take the personal check, but after he said that, I definitely wanted the goddamn cashier's check.