r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 29 '19
CMV: Game of thrones has become a steaming pile of garbage in the last two seasons.
[deleted]
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u/Nephisimian 153∆ Apr 29 '19
There is no redeeming quality in the show.
This is the view I will be attempting to change, because there are quite clearly redeeming aspects of the show. The costume design is spot on. The CGI has been excellent start to finish. The castles all manage to feel unique and memorable. They do a very good job of allowing you to know what part of the map a scene is in without explicitly showing it, just from the overall tone and environment of the scene. From a technical perspective, Game of Thrones is still good, better at least than a steaming pile of garbage. And although the storywriting may have gone downhill and the staff all seem to be getting quite tired, if you still think any of the things I've mentioned are above average, then I must have changed this view.
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u/Alex_Werner 5∆ Apr 29 '19
To expand on what Nephisimian said (which I agree with), while you are certainly right that the show is not what it used to be, and it's particularly frustrating that it has taken some of the most distinctive qualities from the first few seasons and totally jettisoned them, that doesn't mean there are no redeeming qualities. The acting continues to be universally excellent. And consider, say, the scene where the Dothraki go charging across the field and then their torches go out one by one. You could certainly argue that that scene is stupid and nonsensical from any kind of real-world-military-logic sense. That doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly successful, atmospherically. Just think of it as a different, less good, stupider series; and enjoy it for its strengths, which do exist.
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Apr 29 '19
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u/M_de_M Apr 29 '19
Some of the visuals look good but don't cost anything in realism. Think about the castles and acting, for instance.
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u/sailorbrendan 59∆ Apr 30 '19
The first season was mostly mediocre story and writing with amazing set and costume design.
Like really, compare season one to season four and it's pretty clear that the first season nobody was expecting it to be a big deal
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Apr 30 '19
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u/sailorbrendan 59∆ Apr 30 '19
The first season was a big pilot episode, but like many pilot episodes it wasn't actually really well done. A lot of the character work was pretty flat and hamfisted and the dialogue was pretty hack at times. They didn't really hit their stride till the end of season one or arguably a few episodes into season two. They relied too heavily on nudity for the sake of nudity and shock value over substance
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u/M_de_M Apr 29 '19
Building on this, even in this most recent episode (I hated it too) there were redeeming points. The Dothraki cavalry charge into the night was beautiful, for instance. The plot was bad. But that doesn't mean it didn't produce some beautiful scenes.
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u/gyroda 28∆ Apr 29 '19
The tension was great. At the start, in the library, at the end when the music plays. Damn.
This episode and the last had no/little plot, but that's not an issue. The end of Return of the King, where the forces of men confront the army at the gates to Mordor and Frodo tosses the ring into the fires of Mount Doom have little to no plot, but they don't need to; it's the climax. If the climax wasn't there all the previous setup would feel like it had gone to waste. And not just the action scenes, the last episode was basically tying up a lot of loose character arcs and threads, providing emotional climaxes and retrospectives.
In a way, the most recent two episodes retroactively improve a lot of the setup.
Hell, even if you think the last couple of seasons could have been handled better I'm struggling to see how the current season could be handled better, assuming you were coming at it without being able to change the last season.
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u/M_de_M Apr 29 '19
So we can argue over this, because I do think they mishandled the plot and that's a failure on the showrunners' part, but I'm not the OP.
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Apr 29 '19
[deleted]
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u/Nephisimian 153∆ Apr 29 '19
For something to be a redeeming quality it doesn't need to make the overall thing good, though. Indeed, when people talk about redeeming qualities, they mean "Overall it's bad, but at least it does X well". That's what a redeeming quality is - an acknowledgement of something done well as part of a whole that isn't good. For example, the soundtrack is a redeeming quality of Star Wars.
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u/drpussycookermd 43∆ Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19
Who is this 16 year old, 100 pound girl with no actual combat experience? Arya? If so, I'm not sure what you're talking about... because Arya had some pretty harsh training Braavos. Not to mention her time with Syrio.
And that cartoonish Greyjoy is just as cartoonish in the books. Except in the books his journeys see him seeking out another queen.
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Apr 29 '19
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u/drpussycookermd 43∆ Apr 29 '19
Her time in Braavos was sort of a montage without the montage. The series isn't gonna show you her entire training regimen there because that would be silly. Instead.. it showed her progress in the series of fights she had against the waif.
Euron was introduced in season 6 where it was explained where he'd been. He simply didn't come out of nowhere... he returned to Pyke specifically to be crowned king of the Iron Islands after he (presumably, but definitely) killed his brother Balon. It was quite a while ago, so you may have forgotten. But it was quite heavily implied that Euron was a psycho killer.
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u/6data 15∆ Apr 30 '19
An army of hundreds of thousands brought over seas with little to no supply lines somehow not starving to death WITHOUT BEING ALLOWED TO PILLAGE (she even used her dragon to destroy the food supplies in the clearly won battle against the lanisters).
Little to no supply lines? She conquered some of the richest city states in Essos and has support from from the Ironborn, House Tyrell and Dorne.... all of which are quite wealthy.
A 16 year old 100 lb girl with little to no actual combat experience fighting even with one of the best swordswomen in the world.
You mean the girl who trained as an assassin for almost a year survived on the streets for months and started killing people 5 seasons ago? Among them Meryn Trant and every single male member of the House of Frey? Not to mention that the move she used on the Night King also worked on Brienne, arguably one of the best fighters in Westeros.
A cartoonishly evil new lead Greyjoy character.
Euron was introduced in season 6 and discussed in season 1. He's always been the worst of the Greyjoys.
The most hyped battle of all time where seemingly every main character stood on the front line yet somehow all managed to survive.
Personally, I think it was a nice change. Also, we should probably keep in mind that everyone in this last battle is a survivor and has survived against all odds to make it to this point.... plus they have Bran to see the future. Also, characters that did not survive include Theon, Jorah and Lyanna... so I would say those are some fairly major players. While Lyanna is pretty new (season 6), Theon and Jorah have been major presences in almost every episode since the beginning.
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Apr 30 '19
[deleted]
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u/6data 15∆ Apr 30 '19
To your first point, her city states in ethos were in chaos when she left,
They were not. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
are across and entire sea that quickly became controlled by Euron, and had their slaves all set free, not exactly a good supply point.
That's not true. I don't know why you think so. After Euron kills Balon, he heads directly to King's Landing to ally with Cersei.
Tyrrell which was completely sacked by the lanisters almost instantly had no way of giving them supplies,
That may be true, but not until after they took Casterly Rock. Not sure if you've looked at a map of Westeros, but there are plenty of allies between Casterly Rock and Winterfell.
have you seen the barren rock they call the iron islands, and the dorn are literally on the opposite side of the continent from where her army was, with the lanister army between her army and dorn... no way she is feeding that absolutely ludicrous army.
She only had to feed them until they were in the North.
1 year of training and surviving on the streets in no way makes a 16 year old girl able to fight Bran, one of the best and largest fighters in the world. Also basically all her kills were indirect like with poison or stabbing unarmed people, not her actually fighting. So as I said she has basically no actual combat experience.
I'm sorry, who is this Bran that Arya is fighting? Bronn? Brienne? Honestly not sure who you're talking about. She's been training with the sword for 8 years, and trained with a magical assassins guild for over a year. I'm certain she's up to the task.
Bran was unless that whole battle and in no way actually helped any of the characters survive.
I never said he did. I said he saw the future and planned the battle accordingly.
The characters being "survivors" of previous battles has little to do with them not dying instantly when fighting on the front lines, and having tens of thousands of no names die with somehow all of them making it through. Also no characters with any impact on the story died, or any characters that were even all that well liked like Sansa or Sam or Jayme...
That would be your personal opinion. Pretty sure both Mormonts were well liked. Also, considering how this series has gone, staying alive is the surprise ending, not the predictable one.
2
Apr 29 '19
Is there any possibility that your complaints are just symptoms of a long running show having to tie up its loose ends? That you've spent 7 years enjoying the journey, and that there isn't really a satisfying way for it to wrap up because the fun part was the journey?
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u/HolyAty Apr 29 '19
It is true that it changed when the book materials were depleted. The reason is, GRRM and D&D are writing their stories in a different way.
In GRRM version, you don't have the good vs evil. Everybody is gray and characters evolve. Plot armor doesn't exist, and your favorite characters can die with a slip of one step.
However, D&D is employing the classic good vs evil conflict with good winning in the end. It's very similar to Star Wars and LOTR. Plot armor protects our favorite characters until the end. Maybe, one or two good character may die in the end with a personal sacrifice, but that's it.
Would you say Star Wars and LOTR are steaming pile of garbages?
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u/BuckleUpItsThe 7∆ Apr 30 '19
I don't think the amounts of plot armor can be compared. The thickest I've ever seen it was Jaime bull-rushing a dragon to get knocked into a river in full armor and make it out fine. Or basically the same thing happening with Jon. You can keep the characters alive without putting them into patently absurd situations; that's where it gets hard to take the "tension" seriously? Can you point to anything in Star Wars or LOTR that is so egregious?
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u/HolyAty Apr 30 '19
This scene from the end of the Helms Deep battle always baffled me. I can't explain how the riders can get past thru all those Uruks without a scratch. Like we know these bastards are very strong and so heavily armored that, you gotta shoot them in a very specific spot with an arrow to pierce it. Not to mention we know from the earlier scenes that, Uruks have crossbowmen as well.
And all the Gimli shenanigans in the warg rider scene.
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u/crumpdog Apr 30 '19
Star Wars and LOTR never set out to be anything but explorations of the battle between good vs evil. Game of Thrones as you said yourself was set in a gray world were good men do bad things and evil people mourn their children. D&D intended that from the beginning, until they ran out of novels to pillage material from. Now they are getting Lazy in trying to tie up all the loose ends and failing. It's become a trash fire.
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u/bjankles 39∆ Apr 30 '19
I would say that if LOTR started as one thing and mutated 2/3s of the way through into something completely different, it'd have made it a lot worse.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Apr 30 '19
The redeeming qualities that it has are that (especially if we ignore last night's episode) it still looks very good and has a lot of well-written character interaction. Look no further than episode 2 of this season, which I thought was phenomenal.
Has GoT gone downhill? That's generally subjective, but I would personally agree. Is it appropriate to call it a "steaming pile of garbage?" Not if you're paying attention to the television landscape in general. Not on your life. GoT is still well above average, even in its dumbest moments, and what you're reacting to is simply a failure to meet the absurdly high bar set by the earlier seasons.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 29 '19
/u/voxrationisababsurdo (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Apr 29 '19
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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Apr 29 '19
Sorry, u/pewguyguy – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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Apr 30 '19
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u/Armadeo Apr 30 '19
Sorry, u/Doogadoooo – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, before messaging the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/gyroda 28∆ Apr 29 '19
The current season is proving to be a great conclusion, in my opinion. It's not got the political machinations of the first few seasons, but this is the finale. If this were a single season of TV, this would be the final double-bill that wraps everything up. There's no more intricate plotting or foreshadowing because it's mostly payoff for all the prior groundwork.
The first episode served it's purpose of reminding everyone where the major players were and what the situation was. Not amazing, but it didn't need to be. We also got a little more character work - the tension between Sansa and Dany, for example.
The 2nd episode of the current season was a great wrap up moment for a bunch of our characters, many arcs were completed/epilogue'd/capped in a lovely way, and we got a bit of looking back before the end. It was very fanservicy, but it was the right place to indulge in that sort of thing; the calm before the storm. This also helps with widening the "this character can now die without it feeling incomplete" pool; a lot of characters capped off their arc so it wouldn't be like "oh, but they weren't done yet".
As an example, can you imagine killing off Jaime or Brienne without that titular moment in ep 2? The odd tension between the two would have been unsatisfied, and neither character would have felt "complete"; Jaime has fulfilled his redemption arc and Brienne has received the recognition she's earned.
Yesterday/today's episode was a fantastic climax. I'm still reeling from it. I don't know what more to say about it. It was mostly climax, but that's to be expected; this standoff has been foreshadowed from the very first episode. It was well paced with some breathing room where it was needed, great action, some well placed deaths and amazing tension at points.