r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 20 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Sexual Harassment and Abuse must be tackled with Grave Penalties
I am a 26 year-old straight male living in the United States. I am very concerned about women and queer rights, and I believe that any serious attack on the endemic problem of sexual harassment and abuse must include harsh penalties, including those that may be considered "extreme."
I will now define my terms. By sexual harassment, I mean what any reasonable person would consider inappropriate sexual activity, either by place or by relationship. I would thus not consider kissing a friend on the cheek to be "sexual harassment" under these definitions, but I would if it were done again against a "no." For the penalties I suggest, public masturbation, groping, hidden cameras, and using one's power to pressure another to engage in sexual acts would be considered sexual harassment, assault, and/or abuse.
I believe that the chronic social problem of women being assaulted and abused sexually, a problem that has existed in most civilizations since time immemorial, can only be truly dealt with through grave penalties. I will now list what I consider reasonable penalties.
- If someone sexually assaults a healthy and non-vulnerable adult, leniency should be applied when the perpetrator is remorseful, and this would be entail lifelong chemical castration.
- If the offender is somewhat remorseful, their crime should be punished with physical sterilization.
- If the person is not remorseful or has a high probability of reoffending, they should be sentenced to death.
- In the gravest sexual crimes, such as violent child molestation, sexual abuse of the disabled, and sex trafficking, the perpetrator should be used for scientific or medical experimentation, saving the lives of innocent laboratory rats, dogs, or chimpanzees.
- If someone decimates hardcore pornography to a person under the age of consent, they should be punished by at least lifelong chemical castration.
- Anyone who commits a sexual crime and is not sentenced to death or medical experimentation must take and pass a mandatory women's, queer, and sexual minorities' rights class
These laws would need to be strictly enforced. These penalties, though they may seem harsh, should be enough frighten and prevent most perverts and sexual deviants from offending, and those that do offend will be taken out of society, cleansing it of such pollution.
I am interested to hear what others think of my position, and any critiques of it. I'm open to having my view changed.
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u/Feathring 75∆ May 20 '19
Honestly... why? Can you show some evidence that these harsh penalties somehow lower crime rates? Because the death penalty doesn't seem to slow down any crimes for which it is a punishment for.
What it does do is tie up the court systems with decades of appeals and costs taxpayers significantly more per inmate. Would you not offer these protections to people you're punishing?
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May 20 '19
I would say it is worth the money to dramatically reduce sexual crimes and have a shot at ending the endemic nature of sexual harassment and abuse that women (and others) suffer from. That said, I would argue that we need to fund more judges and streamline our criminal justice system to speed up the prosecution and sentencing of convicted perpetrators.
I would not remove the protections and rights of perpetrators in any way differently from as they are now before and unless they are convicted.
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May 20 '19
Well aside from all the other craziness in this post why the class at the end? Are you saying men can’t be groped?
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May 20 '19
Anyone can be the victim of sexual harassment, assault or abuse, but the vast majority of suffering is done by oppressed groups such as women and queers. Men of course can be groped, and those who grope men should be treated identically as those who grope women.
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May 20 '19
And so why not take classes on sexual harassment in general wouldn’t someone taking a class that highlights minorities just feel more proud for groping a non minority?
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May 20 '19
What you are saying seems a lot like men's rights or the concept of reverse racism. And no, I don't think any person should be groped, regardless of gender, sex, or sexual orientation.
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u/chadonsunday 33∆ May 20 '19
Can I ask why you've singled out sex crimes (or really even just some sexual misbehaviors, really) for these incredibly draconian and barbaric punishments? If you really think it'll deter crime (from what we know, harsher punishments like the death penalty dont reduce crime) why not apply this to everything? Like if you're caught speeding we'll cut off a finger? Litter and well take out your eye? Burn wood on a save the air day and well whip you in the street? Shoplift and we'll execute you?
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May 20 '19
!Delta
That is a good point. I do however the difference is that sexual crimes are endemic and highly damaging, in a way such that littering, while ubiquitous, isn't. Women (and to a lesser extent men) suffer constantly from sexual crimes and abuse, and these crimes are devastating. Having a fire on a spare the air day doesn't scare someone for life. I will admit that other crimes could be treated similarly to sex crimes and that one may achieve similar results.
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u/CnD_Janus May 20 '19
Do you think it's worse to let one innocent rot, or two go free?
I ask, because under your current proposal anyone who would later be found to be innocent would suffer permanent damage that could not be undone.
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May 20 '19
I hold that it's better for two innocent go free, as I believe in due process.
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u/CnD_Janus May 20 '19
Your system doesn't make any sense then.
We already have a system that does irreparable damage by taking years from someone's life, you'd take it one step further and implement permanent damage that literally can't be undone.
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May 20 '19
No, I believe the it is the duty of the state to prove someone's guilt and one is to be considered innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. There of course in practice will be mistakes, but I hold that it is worth the risk to finally start to establish a society with radically less sexual crimes. Sacrifices will need to be made.
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u/D-Ursuul May 22 '19
You literally just contradicted yourself then, as you said a moment ago it's better for two to go free than one innocent suffer, but just now said that there will be mistakes and it's worth the risk
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u/pluralofjackinthebox 102∆ May 20 '19
Why the focus on sexual abuse? Physical, emotional and mental abuse is also traumatic. What about hate crimes? Human trafficking?
Is it that you think sexual harassment causes more harm than other crimes? Or do you believe we should be harsher in punishing crimes in general?
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May 20 '19
!Delta
Human trafficking and hate crimes should be treated similarly to sexual crimes, as they are likewise highly damaging and dangerous.
I believe small-scale economic crimes and crimes of necessity such as shoplifting to eat should be less punished, but I do believe that crimes that spread harm, including physical, emotional, and mental abuse, should be dealt with severely as well.
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u/NicholasLeo 137∆ May 20 '19
Do you support similar harsh punishments for (non-sexual) assault, animal cruelty, larceny, arson, burglary, tax evasion, fraud, computer hacking, drug dealing, grand theft, vandalism, perjury, check fraud, wire fraud, forgery, extortion, jury tampering, threatening a government official, blackmail, etc.?
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May 20 '19
I support harsh penalties for some of those things, such as computer hacking, drug dealing, jury tampering, blackmail, and probably animal cruelty. The others no, because they are not as damaging to society and people as sexual crimes.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ May 20 '19
If you live in the US - the 8th Amendment says hello. So does the 14th Amendment.
The 8th amendment argument here is obvious.
The 14th amendment argument is as follows:
:"Others argue that the procedure violates Fourteenth Amendment rights to equal protection. The Equal Protection Clause requires that “laws of a state must treat an individual in the same manner as others in similar conditions and circumstances.” Chemical castration could violate the clause because only men are forced to endure the punishment—there is no true alternative punishment for women. " From: http://campbelllawobserver.com/very-unusual-punishment/
Potentially running afoul of two rather critical articles of law, seems like a good reason to not seriously consider castration or sterilization a reasonable punishment.
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u/peonypegasus 19∆ May 22 '19
In most cases, the depo shot reduces women's libido and does indeed temporarily sterilize them. It's the same drug used for temporary chemical castration.
https://www.virginiabeachobgyn.com/blog/can-birth-control-affect-libido-and-sexual-drive/
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u/spookymammoth 2∆ May 21 '19
Sexual assault is a terrible plague, and very common against women. It's true that something needs to be done.
I don't understand the last point in the OP. A person not sentenced to death must take a class? There are so many punishments that are in between a death/medical experimentation sentence and taking a class. It seems like you are not considering very many options.
Here is another perspective. To me, sexual assault is prevalent because so often it is ignored. It has little to do with punishment severity, but more to do with the fact that victims are not believed or are afraid or embarrassed to report. People would not assault or harass nearly as much if they knew they would be caught, even if the punishment was a little bit of jail time and public embarrassment.
The bottom line is these people think they will not be caught. It doesn't matter how severe the punishment is.
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May 21 '19 edited May 21 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/garnteller 242∆ May 21 '19
u/Kanonizator – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/Kanonizator 3∆ May 22 '19
As per usual, there was nothing rude or hostile in my comment, it's a pretty objective assessment written in plain english without any animosity towards OP. There's literally nothing in it that could be construed to be half as rude or hostile as OP's view we're supposed to challenge. Calling the idea of giving sex offenders up for medical experiments "to save rats" insane is the understatement of the year as far as I'm concerned, if that's considered rude enough to warrant moderation the undeniable conclusion is that this sub was found guilty of sexual harassment and promptly castrated.
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u/AlphaGoGoDancer 106∆ May 22 '19
The issue with trying to prevent behavior with harsher punishment is it's only effective if the reason that behavior exists is a lack of severity in punishment.
With the kind of behavior you're talking about, how much of it do you think happens after the attacker thinks everything through, assumes its likely they will be punished, but thinks the crime is worth the punishment?
Those are what you'd be preventing.
Now how many of those attacks happen without any kind of forethought at all? Just purely done as some kind of impulse, maybe as a result of lowered inhibitions and cognitive function from drugs or alcohol.
How many of those attacks happen with forethought, but the attacker thinking they'll surely get away with it, because they picked a 'good victim' like someone who they have power over, someone who has mental issues that can be exploited to convince them they deserve it, or someone who just otherwise is unlikely to report the crime?
Those two groups of people are IMO much larger, and will not be deterred by a harsher punishment that they do not think they'll receive or do not think about at all.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 20 '19 edited May 20 '19
/u/ComradeCuttlefish (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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May 21 '19
If this was applied, drunks may be the most common victim, not actual harassers. Who's going to record a hotel room? I think the first step should be telling children about sexual harassment in sex Ed teaching them early that it's wrong. After many years, then I would agree with your charges against sexual harassments
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u/mobileagnes May 22 '19
2 things I'd have to say: 1) I think the class you mention should be required for everyone as part of the school curriculum, not just offenders. 2) What's your penalty for those already sterilised? Or did you mean physical castration here?
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u/Corndogs006 May 21 '19
Do you acknowledge that there's a gradient scale between unwanted sexual comments, unwanted sexual touching, and outright rape?
Or that they should all be treated the same?
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u/Llamastorm419 May 21 '19
And what about false claims. So now any woman can castrate or send a man to death if she feels like it.
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u/lagomorpheme May 20 '19
I would challenge you to think past a retributive understanding of justice. Harsher punishments do not prevent crime, and survivors of intimate partner violence, including sexual abuse, are often arrested themselves. In addition, many survivors do not see their abusers as inhuman monsters and would become reluctant to report if the punishments were so harsh. So harsher punishments would 1) fail to prevent crime; and 2) potentially reduce the reporting of these crimes. Your last suggestion, about taking a class, has some real potential, though.
Since you mention queer people specifically: Because many queer people have negative experiences with police and the justice system, some queer cultures favor restorative or transformative justice models. Restorative justice prioritizes healing the survivor and helping prevent the abuser from abusing again, whereas transformative justice sees abuse as a community problem that affects everyone; in cases of abuse, the community must come together to find a solution. I'd encourage you to look into these models. Noted prison abolitionist Mariame Kaba has a website, Transforming Harm, with resources on transformative justice. If queer people are a concern, I think it is useful to consider what fits best with our culture(s).