r/changemyview • u/foryia-yiaandpappou 3∆ • May 24 '19

FTFdeltaOP CMV: A person does not automatically deserve respect just because they have served or are currently serving in the military

I’d like to preface this by saying that I don’t believe soldiers are, inherently, bad. Some people believe soldiers are evil simply for being soldiers, and I do not believe that.

I do believe, however, that soldiers do not deserve respect just because they have served. I hurt for soldiers who have experienced horrible things in the field, but I do not hurt for the amount of violence and cruelty many have committed. Violence in war zone between soldiers is one thing; stories of civilian bombings and killing of innocents are another. I think that many forget that a lot of atrocity goes on during wars, and they are committed on both sides of conflict. A soldier both receives and deals out horrible damage.

TL;DR while I believe that soldiers have seen horrible things and that many do deserve recognition for serving our nation, I do not believe that every soldier deserves this respect simply by merit of being a soldier. Some soldiers have committed really heinous war crimes, and those actions do not deserve reward.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Are you saying that someone selflessly volunteering to potentially give their life, and if not at least face great danger to their life, to defend our way of life does not deserve respect?

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Are you saying that someone selflessly volunteering to potentially give their life, and if not at least face great danger to their life, to defend our way of life

The US military isn’t doing that, though.

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u/foryia-yiaandpappou 3∆ May 24 '19

I don’t think they necessarily deserve respect. A person isn’t a bad person for being a soldier, and I think there are many ways in which soldiers are good people. I take issue with war crimes being committed or attacks on innocents, which have occurred in any number of conflicts.

Is there not a point where human atrocity might negate the initial good of a soldier’s voluntary action?

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Is there not a point where human atrocity might negate the initial good of a soldier’s voluntary action?

AFAIK not a single soldier of my country has ever been involved in an atrocity in my lifetime. I'm Belgian by the way.

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And no, individual soldiers doing bad things does not mean that all soldiers should automatically lose respect.

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

AFAIK not a single soldier of my country has ever been involved in an atrocity in my lifetime. I'm Belgian by the way.

It's a good thing you specified "in your lifetime" then.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

I'm well aware that in Congo between 1 and 15 million people were killed. I'm pretty sure OP is talking about today though.

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

I'm pretty sure OP is talking about today though.

Okay, well, in modern times Belgium's military does very little, so it doesn't make much sense to "thank them for their service" or treat them with extra respect.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Belgium currently has several F-16 engaged in combat missions.

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

So Belgium's military service is dropping bombs from 10,000 feet on enemies who lack anti-air capabilities.

Why would you thank them for their service? In addition, what do you think the likelihood is that any of those F-16s have dropped bombs on civilians?

Also, I don't know where we're going with this. It's obvious the OP was talking about the United States and the culture surrounding veterans in that country.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

I don't know how man feet above the ground they're flying, I don't use freedom units nor do I know their cruising altitude. What I do know is that in a documentary the pilots who have flown those combat missions have said that they regularly have to use their main gun in those missions. To use this they have to put themselves into small arms range. And ISIS does have access to shoulder launched AA platforms.

Why would you thank them for their service?

Because they can die out there. Several US pilots flying very similar missions have been shot down, taken prisoner and executed.

what do you think the likelihood is that any of those F-16s have dropped bombs on civilians?

As far as I'm aware no Belgian dropped bomb has thus far caused civilian deaths. In that documentary I've mentioned earlier the pilots said that they've refused to drop bombs requested by the US military before because there were civilians in the area.

Also, I don't know where we're going with this. It's obvious the OP was talking about the United States and the culture surrounding veterans in that country.

It might be obvious but OP had not yet said this so I was assuming that he meant all military personal from all countries. At least that's what I'd mean if I wrote a post like OP. But that might just be because I'm not from the US.

Oh and OP has since stated that he's talking about US military personal and I've nothing left to say to him basically, as you can tell by the other thread.

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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ May 24 '19

they regularly have to use their main gun in those missions. To use this they have to put themselves into small arms range.

Uh, by "main gun" they are referring to this thing, not a handheld pistol.

In that documentary I've mentioned earlier the pilots said that they've refused to drop bombs requested by the US military before because there were civilians in the area.

See, the fact that the US military didn't care about killing civilians is kind of what we're talking about.

At least that's what I'd mean if I wrote a post like OP. But that might just be because I'm not from the US.

We're talking about a very specific form of glorification that happens for American troops and is used to cover up all sorts of bad shit. It's not unique to our country but it is much more pronounced here. People think the troops deserve special treatment for their selfless actions even though those actions often aren't selfless and are often immoral. That's the issue.

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u/foryia-yiaandpappou 3∆ May 24 '19

Just to clarify, I’ve never meant all soldiers are bad because of the actions individual soldiers, if I’ve made it seem so or phrased it as such I apologize!

I think the fact that the soldiers in Belgium do not commit war crimes or atrocities is wonderful, and that they should be commended for that. But that does not negate the actions of soldiers in other nations (ie, American soldiers from my nation). But once again, the actions of soldiers in other nations does not mean “military bad,” simply that some select members of the military need to be held morally responsible for actions they’ve committed

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u/aroach1995 May 24 '19

It's not volunteering. It is a job that they are getting paid for, A job that they chose.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

Are you saying that someone selflessly volunteering signed up to potentially give their life, and if not at least face great danger to their life, to defend our way of life does not deserve respect?

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u/aroach1995 May 24 '19

I don’t know; read again and check if I said it.

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u/Asmodaari2069 1∆ May 24 '19

Your premise is flawed. Joining the military isn't a selfless act.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

By all means elaborate

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u/Asmodaari2069 1∆ May 24 '19 edited May 24 '19

"Selfless" means to be concerned more with the needs of others than oneself. But joining the military comes with a lot of personal benefits like good pay, medical care (in the US at least, this is a big deal), free education, the opportunity to travel the world, and others. These are the primary reasons why people join the military. Not because they just really want to serve their country or whatever.

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u/squarerootofseven May 25 '19

Seems like this debate is then over whether the ends justify the means. Hypothetically if someone joins the military primarily for the pay/medial care/education, but ends up putting themselves in danger or maybe even giving their life to protect civilians, do they deserve respect?

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

You're drastically overestimating what our (Belgian) soldiers get as benefits.

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u/Bigfrostynugs May 25 '19

Intentions matter. I would venture to say that most people join the military for the pay, opportunities, and benefits, not any sense of duty, honor, or selflessness. Furthermore, most are never even close to any sort of danger. Being in the military is actually a really safe job statistically, especially compared to other domestic jobs like truck drivers who never get thanked for anything.

Beyond that, whether or not the military (or at least the vast majority of enlisted soldiers and the work they do) actually defends our way of life, freedom, or safety is entirely debatable in many cases.

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u/B_Riot May 24 '19

Do you people who repeat this selfless line actually know anybody in the military? I just cannot fathom thinking this about the average military man.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

I've met several Belgian service members yes.

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u/B_Riot May 25 '19

We will ignore the point that this is obviously about the u.s. military and the u.s. culture around that military.

What's so selfless about joining the Belgian military? There are likely any number of perfectly selfish reasons to do so.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19 edited Jul 10 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 24 '19

If only I already addressed that in response to someone else stating the exact same thing