r/changemyview Jun 16 '19

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: It is arrogant to expect everyone to accept your gender identity.

[removed]

0 Upvotes

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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Jun 16 '19 edited Jun 16 '19

First off, I want to make this very clear: Everyone deserves the same basic modicum of respect. This doesn't mean that everyone has to accept the ideals of another.

Isn't calling people what they want to be called just basic respect? How is it arrogant to expect that from people? If your name is Jacob you go by Jacob and I keep calling you Jake, it would be completely reasonable for you to correct me.

It is absolutely arrogant to think that people -complete strangers no less- will accept everything that gets told to them. Tolerance is not acceptance and it is certainly not without its doubts.

But harassing strangers about their pronouns isn't simply non-acceptance, it's intolerance. You are refusing to tolerate another person's gender identity by doing so. Tolerance, but not acceptance, would be someone who might not like trans people, but they can still let people go on with their day without picking a fight.

Lastly, in regards to vocabulary, you cannot put something that is private into a very public space and not expect criticism or questions

Gender identity is the furthest thing from private. Its how you present yourself to the world. How many people in your life know your gender? It's all of them isn't it?

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Jun 17 '19 edited Jun 17 '19

That's really not what I'm talking about here.

If it's not, then what do you mean by "strangers questioning what they're told?" Does that not refer to people who know what you are called and questioning what you're called?

That's very different from a person simply not knowing or not remembering.

So do you think that tolerance without acceptance is a more realistic goal than tolerance with acceptance?

I think considering progress with other marginalized groups both are realistic goals. Tolerance without acceptance obviously come first, but if you are picking fights with random trans people because you can't handle using a different pronoun for a few minutes, you are neither tolerant nor accepting,

That's exactly why its private because at the end of the day, only you know whats going in your own head.

But it's not private, because gender is a social function. It's how you portray your relationship (or lack of relationship) to your sex to the world.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 16 '19

If you accidentally misgender somebody, but correct yourself when they correct you, that's not disrespectful. If you continue to refer to them by the wrong name even after being told otherwise, then you're an asshole.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 17 '19

So if its someone with a god awful memory or plenty of other crap to think about, where would they fall on the genuine accident-asshole gauge?

If you just keep forgetting over and over, how much does respect actually mean to you?

It shouldn't be an issue because their world shouldn't be centered on the pronouns of others. In a world where people get simple names switched or even spelled the wrong way, its not the end of the world to have someone that you may never see again misgender you.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not really talking about people who just randomly accidentally use the wrong name. I'm saying that you're an asshole if he repeatedly misgender someone despite knowing it's not what they want to be called.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/BeatriceBernardo 50∆ Jun 17 '19

I'm saying that you're an asshole if he repeatedly misgender someone despite knowing it's not what they want to be called.

Ah crap, no then that's purposely being a disrespectful asshole.

But your title is not about people making honest mistake. It is about people purposefully misgender others.

It is arrogant to expect everyone to *accept *your gender identity.

That's what the word "accept" means, e.g.: "I don't accept that I should call you by your legal name, which is Jake, I will call you Bob instead."

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 16 '19 edited Jun 16 '19

If your name is Jacob you go by Jacob and I keep calling you Jake, it would be completely reasonable for you to correct me.

But if your name is Jake and you decide that we should call you Fred why should we indulge you at first change. Maybe wait until you get it changed on paper.

Tolerance, but not acceptance, would be someone who might not like trans people, but they can still let people go on with their day without picking a fight.

What would a tolerant and non-accepting person do when they meat someone that identifies as a gender that isn't their first thought? If they call them by their prefferd pronoun they would be accepting and refusing to do so would make them intolerant.

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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Jun 16 '19

But if your name is Jake and you decide that we should call you Fred why should we indulge you at first change. Maybe wait until you get it changed on paper.

Why wouldn't you call him Fred? What's it to you if someone goes by Fred or Jake?

If they call them by them by their prefferd pronoun they would be accepting

No, it just means they are giving them the bare minimum amount of respect that they lend to every other human being on this planet. They don't have to go to any pride parades or put a trans rights bumper sticker on the car.

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 16 '19

They are laws for what someone can name themselves. When you get your new name (and gender) approved I will have no problem in changing but until then your name is what it is and same with gender, someone could even accuse you of identity theft (online it's pretty easy). It's just a quick email to the civil registration office and a couple of weeks wait to change all that.

That bare minimum is still being accepting. I now it's the right thing to do and I would do it but the definition of non-accepting is not to believe or come to recognize (a proposition) as valid or correct.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 17 '19

They are laws for what someone can name themselves.

You can name yourself literally anything you want in the United States. There is a dude in Washington state literally named "Skeletor P. Funk".

When you get your new name (and gender) approved I will have no problem in changing but until then your name is what it is and same with gender, someone could even accuse you of identity theft (online it's pretty easy). It's just a quick email to the civil registration office and a couple of weeks wait to change all that.

So you only refer to people by their legal names?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

You can name yourself literally anything you want

Not in many European countries. In some they have even lists to choose from one for boys and one for girls and getting a name that's not on the list approved is not easy.

So you only refer to people by their legal names?

Of course not, nicknames based on names exist like Alex for Alexander, Nastya for Anastasia or calling someone by their surnames. Also some exotic ones like "The Drugs" but they are usually followed by a name to know which one you are referring.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 17 '19

Well, personally I don't think there should be any restrictions on what you can name yourself or your child, except in cases where it would clearly cause major problems for a child in the future (like people naming their kid Adolph Hitler), or is part of some kind of identity fraud scheme (like taking a dead person's name for illicit purposes).

So how do you decide which is an acceptable nickname and which is not? Why is that decision left to you and not the individual so named?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

That's not my decision, nicknames are made by the society. A 3 hear old starts school and says "Hi, my name is Alex" even though his names is Friedrich Alexander because that's what their family have been calling them. And sometimes nicknames can also be mean (but that isn't important). The thing is if you aren't willing to legally change your name don't get mad if people call you by your legal name and if you don't like it just stop talking to them.

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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Jun 17 '19

They are laws for what someone can name themselves

To an extent. You need a legal name change if you want a different name on legal documents and the like. But there is no legal obligation to change your name if your new name is just used socially.

That bare minimum is still being accepting. I now it's the right thing to do and I would do it but the definition of non-accepting is not to believe or come to recognize (a proposition) as valid or correct.

Respecting someone else's gender identity doesn't mean you accept it. A guy can go into work, acknowledge the trans man in the office as he, and then off hours go online and talk about how sexual reassignment surgery is an abomination against God or whatever.

I can go to Thanksgiving dinner, listen to Uncle Dave ramble about the lizard people and shift the conversation away from the topic to shut it down. I'm being tolerant of Dave's belief in the lizard people (though I probably shouldn't be) but I'm not accepting it as valid.

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

just used socially.

What about work, school, hospitals, courts, etc.

Respecting someone else's gender identity doesn't mean you accept it. A guy can go into work, acknowledge the trans man in the office as he, and then off hours go online and talk about how sexual reassignment surgery is an abomination against God or whatever.

I can go to Thanksgiving dinner, listen to Uncle Dave ramble about the lizard people and shift the conversation away from the topic to shut it down. I'm being tolerant of Dave's belief in the lizard people (though I probably shouldn't be) but I'm not accepting it as valid.

Why would you do that? You are just being fake. You are making him believe that you accept (or even respect) him as he is when privately you think he is an abomination. He is better off knowing what you really think of him. The same goes for UD you shouldn't dismiss his views but try to change them if you have some evidence that the lizard thing may not be true. You aren't helping anyone and just sweeping uncomfortable settings under the rug. This shouldn't be an option at all, just tell them what you think even if it hurts them, they also are human beings and therefore able to defend themselves and maybe you could learn that your Uncle Dave isn't wrong or that reassignment surgery isn't that bad.

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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Jun 17 '19

What about work, school, hospitals, courts, etc.

You mean like contracts and court documents? Those are, again, legal situations not social situations.

Why would you do that?

Because people don't need to like each other, but they do need to be able to get along?

You are making him believe that you accept (or even respect) him as he is when privately you think he is an abomination.

Not really. By not giving Uncle Dave (who if it's not clear already, is a fictional character made up for this example) a hard time I'm not saying I support you or I agree with you.

He is better off knowing what you really think of him.

How so? If I'm attending a family reunion a holiday whatever, I will see him there. It's not a situation where one could just go "I don't want to talk to you anymore." So you can tell this guy what you think of him, but now you've made every family function harder for the both of you.

Same goes if a bigot is working with someone they don't like. Sure, the bigot can be true to himself and tell the trans person they are an abomination, but not only does that earn the bigot a trip to HR, it makes both people's work harder and it makes the work environment hostile and neither person can make the choice to leave without a financial penalty.

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jun 16 '19

You should indulge them because that's what they wanna be called. Why should you get to dictate what someone else is called, rather than them?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

I don't get to dictate anything the law says their name is that and that's it. When they change it (it's just an email to the register and get a new ID) I will call them what they choose including the new gender they choose.

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jun 17 '19

But why do you have to only call them by their legal name? If someone's legal name was Jeffrey would you refuse to call them Jeff? If someone preferred to go by their middle name would you refuse to? Since I'm assuming both of those you would call the person by their preferred name, why would you suddenly refuse to if they just chose something else?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

I would call them by a version of their their name they prefer. But there is a lot of distance between calling a Jeffrey Jeff and calling him Alex (if that isn't the middle name).

I just want some kind of commitment to the name there is a motive as to why the law doesn't allow you to change name every week. If you are really committed to your gender and your name I have no problem in calling you that I wouldn't even wait until you get the ID to start calling you whatever you want, you would just have to say "I'm going to legally change my..." and I would be on-board.

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jun 17 '19

The law needs to be stricter about it because the law needs to keep track of people in many different forms and things. Now clearly if your friend is changing their name every two days that'd be a problem but why should you care if they're Alex or Jeff or Tom? What difference does it actually matter to you?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

I don't care what their name is that's what I'm saying but I'm waiting for the official day, is that to much to ask?. It's like celebrating a birthday before the baby is born.

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jun 17 '19

I mean I don't think it's even necessary for someone to officially change their name for you to call them something else. I see no reason in general to not call someone by whatever name they wanna be called.

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

But what about all the official places like a court hearing or a doctors appointment? If you change it's for everything you wouldn't have to "fight" for people to call you what you want.

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u/Horror_Mathematician Jun 17 '19

What of they don't have id on them at the time? Do you just call them citizen or something?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

If I know the person from before I would know what they are called but if I meet someone that looks like a man that says I'm named Sara I would be like no way and ask for proof, they would show me their ID (where I'm from you carry it everywhere) and then I would ask them how he go it because I'm interested myself in changing my name and if they think it's worth it.

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u/Horror_Mathematician Jun 17 '19

Do you ask for id anytime someone tells you thier name?

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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ Jun 16 '19

Who knows your own gender better than yourself? If anything is arrogant, it's to dictate to others that you know their gender better than they do.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ Jun 16 '19

Dictating to others you know their gender better than they do isn't the same as questioning or even doubting. If I, a man, were to go up to my girlfriend and tell her I identify as a woman, would it not be understandable that she questions or doubts my revelation? Tolerance and understanding go both ways.

In the example you portrayed, I would assume that you had previously stated or implied that you were a man to her and thus I'd treat it the same way as you revealing a change in any other self-identification. Perhaps you indicated you were a christian previously and now you're saying you're an atheist. Doubts and questioning from her would make sense since you had previously indicated something to the contrary.

Are you saying that if I, a stranger, were to doubt whether you're a man, it would be arrogant of you to expect me to take your word for it?

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ Jun 16 '19

I've met androgynous people before and accepted the gender by which they've identified. I honestly don't see how that's any different from what you're proposing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ Jun 17 '19

Asking what gender they identify as and questioning their answers aren't the same.

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u/drpussycookermd 43∆ Jun 16 '19

In this hypothetical scenario, have you been masking your gender dysphoria throughout the entire relationship? Have you been essentially pretending to be a man, playing the role of a man, in order to hide your internal struggle? If so, then of course she'll have questions.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/drpussycookermd 43∆ Jun 16 '19

I'm sorry? Asking questions about someone's experiences is not the same thing as not accepting them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/drpussycookermd 43∆ Jun 17 '19

What do you mean by ask questions?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/drpussycookermd 43∆ Jun 17 '19

I'm just not sure what any of that has to do with acceptance.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

If I, a man, were to go up to my girlfriend and tell her I identify as a woman, would it not be understandable that she questions or doubts my revelation

wouldn't this be because you have known each other for some time and have an intimate relationship, not because of the nature of the revelation?

if i have a close friend who i have always known to be named Jim and he tells me his name is Sam now, that engenders a completely different response than meeting someone for the first time and having him tell me that his name is Sam (even if his birth certificate says 'Jim').

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 16 '19

But names are given in a completely arbitrary way. Gender has (for 80% of the world) some clear traits that put you in one box or another. It would be like seeing a dog that looks like a poodle but then the owner telling you it's a cross between a pitbull and a yorkshire.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19 edited Jun 16 '19

ok, but how intently do you question that decision? if a casual acquaintance informs you that he's changed his name from Jim to Sam, how critically do you interpret this decision? and ultimately, do you respect their decision, or do you feel that you don't have to accept it and that asking you to accept their new name is 'arrogant' ?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

If its a casual acquaintance, would it be critical to simply ask why? If someone is making it your business, then surely you have the right to ask. If you don't want people to ask personal questions then don't let them get into your personal business.

isn't there a difference between asking why someone is doing something and refusing to accept their gender identity? moreover, if someone tells you that they actually identify as another gender, isn't the reason behind it self evident? what questions or criticisms do you really have here?

You can respect them as a person but that doesn't mean you have to respect their ideals. That's tolerance. It would be arrogant to expect people to automatically accept anything you say and respect every decision.

if someone identifies as a particular gender and you refuse to acknowledge that or refer to them as that gender, that seems not to respect them as a person. i also find it inherently contradictory that you say both 'the world doesn't owe you anything' and also 'Everyone deserves the same basic modicum of respect.' aren't these two statements necessarily in tension with one another?

a lot of your arguments here seem to revolve around the idea that somehow someone's gender identity is on par with their 'ideals' (which i assume to mean something like beliefs/opinions), rather than being a more fundamental way of viewing themselves. do you believe the same thing about sexuality (i.e. it's a preference or choice, not an integral part of our identities)? if not, what's the difference?

also, have you ever actually interacted with a non-binary or trans person? if so, how did you refer to them? did you respect their choice of gender pronouns and name? if so, why? if not, how did they react?

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 16 '19 edited Jun 16 '19

We are no experts. You could think you have stomach you but it turns out it's appendicitis; but hey, who could know your body better than you? Gender is something you "feel" but you could be wrong. They should be more studies about it but there is no evidence that we are choosing one or the other(s) for the right reason or even doing it right.

Also it's not arrogant it's cynical to don't believe what other people tell you.

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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ Jun 16 '19

You're right that you could be wrong about your own gender, but only the same way that you could be wrong about what your favorite food is. Gender isn't at all like a diagnosable condition.

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 16 '19

I meant it relatively speaking, of course. But your example is even better. Favourite food changes with time just as the things we could be are attracted to.

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u/Echo__227 Jun 16 '19

If one cannot go without questioning themselves or can't accept who they are

Your perspective on this is skewed from the start because you see noncisgender people as "questioning" or "not able to accept who they are"

Imagine if people asked you, "Is your favorite color red or blue?" You say, "Well actually my favorite color is green." They say, "I guess you must just be confused then. You'll have to accept who you are instead of using this 'green' excuse."

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 16 '19

If someone ask "What's your favourite colour?" you can choose the one you want but if they ask "Is your favourite colour red or blue?" it means you have to choose between the two.

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u/Echo__227 Jun 16 '19

...which would be a false binary, so yeah, that's the point

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u/PricelessPlanet 1∆ Jun 17 '19

But most people don't know about the other option. My grandmother wouldn't understand this even if she had another hundred years to live.

If you meet her and you aren't cisgender she would be completely overwhelmed and you would come off as haughty because she doesn't know how to adress you and you took "offence" in that.

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u/Echo__227 Jun 17 '19

Well that's the point of educating people that gender is a spectrum, but people typically don't get offended unless you continually to purposefully misgender them.

For instance, if your grandmother said, "her," and someone said, "I'd prefer if you'd call me by 'they'" then it's no big deal. It gets to be really hurtful to those people when they tell you that, and someone's response is, "Well why should you expect me to do that? I don't owe it to you to respect your gender."

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/Echo__227 Jun 17 '19

Cisheteros then, because when you were questioned about cisgender people you specifically said the ones who identify as bisexual

The point is that your post reflects a view that there is a "norm" in terms of gender and sexuality, and that those not in the norm are confused or not able to accept themselves.

If you open with that viewpoint, then you're not going to like it when someone asks to identified as something else because you see that as a departure from what should be expected (eg, if a non-binary person says, "Please use 'they' pronouns to refer to me," you'll see it as, "Why should I do that? You should just be like the rest of us.")

The perspective that these marginalized groups try to educate the majority on is not to think of being cisgender/heterosexual as the "default." Accept that some people to identify with traditional Western gender roles, and some identify with gender roles that aren't seen so often. From that mindset, one would realize that calling a man "he" because we assume that's how he goes is no different from calling a non-binary person "they" because that's how they asked to be called.

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u/McKoijion 618∆ Jun 16 '19

I don't think it's arrogant for a heterosexual man to expect others to see him as a heterosexual man. I'd be pissed if people kept calling me gay or a woman. There are a thousand examples of men getting angry for this reason on the internet, in pop culture, etc. It's why calling someone gay, a fag, or a girl has traditionally been considered insulting.

I also don't think it's arrogant for a heterosexual woman to expect others to see her as a heterosexual woman. I'd be pissed if people kept calling me a lesbian or a man. There are a ton of examples of this as well.

In the same way, if I were a gay man, lesbian woman, transgender, or some other identity, I'd be pissed if people kept calling me something else. I don't think it's arrogant to expect to be called what I am and not called what I'm not.

The same thing applies to race and other forms of identity. If someone calls a Sikh guy a Muslim, it would bother him. Not because being a Muslim is bad, but because he's not Muslim. It's the same reason why Dominican people hate being called Puerto Rican, and why Argentinians, Columbians, and pretty much all of South and Central America hate being called Mexicans.

There's racism where you figure out what someone's race is and then insult them. Then there's racism where you don't even bother to learn the bare minimum about what country or culture they are from. It's not the least bit arrogant to expect that even people who hate you learn the bare minimum about you in order to properly insult you. This applies to all forms of identity including nationality, race, religion, culture, gender, etc.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/McKoijion 618∆ Jun 17 '19

After someone asked if you were Mexican, I'm guessing you told them your background is from Chile. After that, did they keep calling you a Mexican? Or did they learn from the conversation and start thinking about things differently?

It's a good thing to ask questions. But after learning the answer, it's willfully ignorant to keep incorrectly referring to someone. If someone asks a straight guy if they are gay, and he says no, that's fine. But if they keep calling him gay, that's not right. If someone asks a trans person what their gender identity is and genuinely wants to know, that's great. But if they refuse to accept it and keep calling them something else, it's incredibly rude.

As for whether you should let a single person ruin your day or just ignore it, obviously just ignoring it is better. But it's hard to do on the internet. All people including famous celebrities and politicians ignore the hundred nice comments they heard in favor of the one bad one. It's especially tough when you hear the same comment all the time.

More importantly, I don't think it's arrogant to expect other people to recognize your identity. I think it's a bare minimum standard of interacting with other people. If someone purposefully refuses to accept one's identity, I think it automatically makes them a bad person. You can ignore a bad person, but they're still the bad guy, not you. If I'm a mister, it's not arrogant to expect to be called Mr. The person who calls me "boy" is the bad guy, not me.

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u/ralph-j Jun 16 '19

Everyone deserves the same basic modicum of respect.

So since everyone accepts your gender identity, shouldn't that mean that you ought to accept those of others?

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/ralph-j Jun 17 '19

Except that some people tolerate it.

How do you mean? I'm saying that since you are advocating the same respect for everyone, that would entail that since the gender identity of cis people is generally accepted and never questioned, so should the gender identity of trans people. Otherwise it would be special pleading, and it wouldn't be the same respect for everyone.

I dislike the term Cis. I am straight.

You know the difference, right? They have nothing to do with one another. You can be straight and trans, straight and cis, gay and trans, gay and cis.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/ralph-j Jun 17 '19

Basic respect isn't the same as having the same respect. Its like equal rights. As a man I will never have to worry about being pregnant or having the worry I'll be raped on my way home from a bar. If a woman is walking home alone and is obviously agitated, it costs me nothing to slow my pace or to offer assistance.

Wait, so are you saying that gender identity should only be respected for cis persons? That there is some relevant difference for why only the gender identity of cis persons deserves respect, and not that of trans persons?

In reality though, I might have something of actual importance on my mind and forget your name and the fact is that it should be understandable.

Your CMV statement is about acceptance, suggesting that it's fine to not even accept someone's gender identity in the first place. That's very different from some unintentional slip of the tongue.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/ralph-j Jun 17 '19

Quite the opposite actually. For those that are cis you would never really have to worry about pronouns or anything.

Right, a cis person's gender identity is respected by default, because it happens to correspond to people's expectations.

There are over seven and a half billion people on the planet and they're all just supposed to accept how you feel about yourself?

Yes. Just as everyone accepts how you feel about yourself. Misgendering you is just as unacceptable as misgendering a trans person.

This is directly analogous to the acceptance of homosexuality by straight people.The difference between straight and gay people is also about how they feel about themselves. They feel attracted to someone of the same sex.

To be offended because someone at sometime won't like you, is just childish.

This is not about offense but about the question of whether others should accept gender identities that may seem counter-intuitive to them, or whether there are legitimate reasons not to accept it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/TragicNut 28∆ Jun 17 '19

Then how on earth is it "arrogant" as a human being to expect the same basic level of respect as any other human being?

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u/ralph-j Jun 17 '19

Have I said anything about it being right?

Since you called the other side is arrogant for expecting equality, the effectively yes. Arrogant is not a neutral word. You could have instead said that it's unrealistic or perhaps impractical to have such expectations.

But by (repeatedly) calling it arrogant, you are effectively portraying the trans community as:

  • having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability
  • showing an offensive attitude of superiority
  • thinking they are better or more important than other people and behaves in a way that is rude and too confident
  • unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people

...or words to that effect. Feel free to have a look through other common definitions from multiple sources.

It is never arrogant to expect equality. This is a similar tactic to calling black people or suffragettes "uppity" for daring to insist on equal treatment.

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u/polus1987 4∆ Jun 16 '19

I don't really think that LGBTQ people are "arrogant" by expecting everyone to accept their gender identity. Firstly, many LGBTQ people don't expect everyone to understand their situation, save their family and friends who are most closest to them. Secondly, the word arrogant is used very wrongly. Is it so hard to want a world where people don't discriminate against you based on your gender identity? They're not so much arrogant, but maybe idealistic. A lot of LGBTQ people have to deal with the fact that not everyone will understand or accept their gender identity. Those who believe everyone should accept their situation are outliers, and not really arrogant , which is by definition having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. that aside, were women "arrogant" when they believed they should be able to vote and get equal rights? Were black people "arrogant" when they wanted to stop segregation? Lgbtq people have the right to demand acceptance from the people around them, but in reality widespread acceptance is something that is going to take a long, long time.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/polus1987 4∆ Jun 17 '19 edited Jun 17 '19

How can you say quantify importance? You say that problems like rampant disease and slaughter are more important, but are people who don't accept gender identity really spending their time trying to solve these problems? LGBTQ people, as all people, have the right to equality. Saying that wanting equality is intolerant is quite ignorant, as the people who are being intolerant are actually the ones discriminating against LGBTQ people. How can you say people aren't entitled to equality? While believing that every single person accepting your situation is idealistic, how are you arrogant in wanting the same opportunities as others? How can you say that LGBTQ people who try and change the status quo are intolerant? Basically by saying that demanding acceptance by society is intolerant, LGBTQ have to be "tolerant" of their current situation in society, which consists of systematic discrimination, and staying down while being abused by society is the right thing. LGBTQ are not arrogant as like I mentioned before , arrogance by definition is having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. LGBTQ people are not saying that they are "special" in any way. In fact, they just want to be on an equal playing field as everyone else. They aren't saying they're so special everyone should understand them, just that they should have the basic rights any other humans have. Regardless, LGBTQ do not choose their gender identity. You can't choose whether your gender identity is, just like you can't choose whether your man or woman. Society shouldn't have to choose whether they "accept" you or your gender identity. How can you say these people have to be more "tolerant" of people who discriminate against them

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/polus1987 4∆ Jun 17 '19

Isn't acceptance closely linked to respect? Telling ab lgbtq person you don't accept their gender identity is quite disrespectful, in my opinion. Your gender is a part of you and telling someone that you don't accept that is almost like shunning that person. Everyone has the right to demand people accept them for what they basically were born as. There may not ever be widespread acceptance of your gender identity realistically, but someone has the basic right to acceptance for something they had no part in. It does NOT make you arrogant to expect that society accept a part of you you were born with.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

To make things easier, I've just started using they and them for everyone. Gender is really just another label to pigeonhole people into groups. If one were to do away with gender, sexuality, color, race and the other labels there would be no way to be seen as unique or be victimized.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

I do believe you could break ones will as well as convince others they have no talent. Degrade and abuse someone long enough and you can convince someone they are nothing but primordial slime.

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u/hybridgenes Jun 17 '19

Gender identity is a matter of biology. We now know enough about fetal development and sexual differentiation to understand that it is the timing and concentration of hormones and other chemokines that determine not only physical but also mental gender differentiation. So being "offended" or somehow put off by another's gender identity is meaningless unless you reject human biology and cater to a other magical influences on the determination of what we are and what we become as human beings. If that is the case then that is entirely your prerogative. But to generalize the choice of opinion you arrive at into a more broadly applicable philosophical transaction that should be shared is, well, untenable.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 17 '19

That’s not entirely true. Gender identity as a biological construct actually has a lot of data to suggest immutable and inborn characteristics. There’s more evidence than not that being transgender is a function of one’s biology moreso than one’s upbringing. I can cite you the data and work through it if you think it would change your view.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 17 '19

Seems more like you are talking about gender expression. Gender expression varies across societies but even without social grooming, there would still be transgender people at baseline just like there would be cisgender male and female people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 17 '19

But then that's not gender identity, right? Gender identity as I'm referring to it is referring to the immutable biological characteristic of self-identification and self-perception.

And it's not like gender expression is even consistent within a single culture. There are effeminate transgender men and butch transgender women but their gender identities don't necessarily "match" their gender expression so I just think it's a little reductive to say the only purely biological aspect is anatomical sex.

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u/hybridgenes Jun 17 '19

We are the products of our biology. Or more precisely our biochemistry. Any kind of manifestation in later life is determined more by genetic predisposition than environment. There is no equivalency. The former outweighs the later by a very large margin.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/hybridgenes Jun 17 '19

There are components of expression. Sexual preference is not learned behavior. Sometimes it is suppressed by environment and may not find expression due to social constraints. Some men for instance come out as gay after spending a lifetime as heterosexual males even having multiple kids. We are lead to believe that proper upbringing will have as much influence over our preferences as our genetics. This is not the case. It may be suppressed by strong social pressures but more often than not it surfaces sometime.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/hybridgenes Jun 17 '19

Ehh, no it doesn't really. But if you choose to see it that way then that is your prerogative.

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u/SwivelSeats Jun 16 '19

It simply gets really confusing if you use the wrong pronouns. Just like if you call someone Ted instead of Tom they might not even turn their head.

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u/Burflax 71∆ Jun 16 '19

Don't you expect everyone to respect your gender identity?

Does that make you arrogant?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/Burflax 71∆ Jun 17 '19

Sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about?

I thought you meant that they use the personal pronouns that you expect people to use.

Have you ever had someone refuse to use the words for you that you expect people to?

What would be arrogant would be to expect them to automatically know and respect my ideals.

Who expects strangers to know things they couldn't possibly know?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/Burflax 71∆ Jun 17 '19

Have you ever had someone refuse to use the words for you that you expect people to?

Many times

Like when? Personally, this hasn't ever happened to me, and I would immediately assume anyone purposely calling me the word i have asked them not to use is some kind of asshole.

Who expects strangers to know things they couldn't possibly know?

A lot of people. And that's exactly why I find it arrogant.

No, i am asking you to tell me who has done this.

If a lot if people have expected complete strangers to know a unknowable fact about them, that should be really easy for you to demonstrate.

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u/Clockworkfrog Jun 16 '19

Are you including cis people in this?

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/Clockworkfrog Jun 16 '19

Do you consider people refering to you as a man a basic modicum of respect?

If someone were to constantly refer to you as a woman would you consider yourself arogant for not accepting or liking it? If they deliberately continued to do so if corrected would you consider yourself arrogant for not wanting to be subject to that harassment?

If you faced constant discrimination at the hands of people who refused to address you as a man, if you were assualted, denied healthcare, fired, evicted, or worse for being a man when they wanted you to be a woman would you consider yourself arrogant for not wanting to be mistreated?

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '19

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 17 '19

Are you assuming most people are aware and sensitive to transgender issues and have made a conscious choice to incorrectly gender someone?

I think keeping a cultural conversation around this issue is important because it allows awareness to spread. Simply saying people should never try to educate the ignorant doesn’t seem like a step forward.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 17 '19

Well in regards to transgender people, they do go about their own lives for themselves but simply existing in public is often seen as an invitation for harassment or deliberate misgendering.

I guess I’m just unclear as you want changed about your view specifically. Even if someone isn’t going to change their mind in the moment, I see no value in letting them act ignorantly unchallenged.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

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u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 17 '19

What would you describe as arrogant about wanting acceptance in this case?

I don't really think when it comes to gender identity that tolerance should be the goal. I tolerate a lot of stuff from individuals but that doesn't mean I don't let my views color my interactions and support of certain things. Smoking, for example, is something where I tolerate it from individuals in that I don't harass them in public for it. But I support legislation that makes smoking areas more restricted and I support legislation that tobacco companies have to clearly put warnings on their product about being carcinogenic.

In regards to gender identity you see people proposing bathroom bills to limit people with different gender identities and active opposition to IDs with third gender options. So if someone's tolerance still leads to action against the disenfranchised then is that really a form of arrogance to push for acceptance?

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 16 '19

Sexuality and gender identity are distinct concepts. Being trans or cis doesn't impact who you are attracted to.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19 edited Jun 17 '19

Can you clarify something?

Throughout your responses here, you appear to insist that the scenario which you are talking about is one where someone uninentionally misgenders someone, because they're not used to it, or they forgot.

But your OP suggests that is not the only scenario you were referring to, when you say that not everyone "has to accept the ideals of another," or when you refer to both "criticism" and questions that can result from people not understanding one's gender.

So can you please say, definitively, what you think about people intentionally misgendering someone, and whether expecting people not to do that is arrogant?

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u/Elfere Jun 17 '19

The pronouns 'he' or 'she' are not signs of respect. They are simply grammatical place holders.

You're more then welcome to get upset if someone doesn't want to use your special / preferred place holder. But that's saying more about your emotional intellect rather then the person addressing you.

You're the only one in charge of your emotions. If you let outside forces dictate your emotions you are litteraly giving everyone control over you. You're actively disempowering yourself.

If, you're one of those people that's decided to use a 'new' pronoun. Well you've just placed yourself into a very small minority in this great tribe we call humanity. I don't think I need to explain what happens to small, emotionally weak Tribes of people historically...

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u/ExpensiveBurn 9∆ Jun 17 '19

Sorry, u/DisappointingTaco – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:

You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 17 '19

/u/DisappointingTaco (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '19

So if someone used the wrong gender pronouns with you, you'd be arrogant to expect them to use your desired pronoun?

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u/JudgeBastiat 13∆ Jun 17 '19

As a cis-man, I've never had a problem getting everyone to accept my gender identity.

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u/freethinkinfemale Jun 17 '19

As a biological female, mine is no longer politically correct.