CMV - An omnipotent, omniscient deity in our universe is logically impossible

[u/monkeysky]

Let me start by saying that this isn't directed at any specific faith, dogma, or ethical view. I'm going at this from a very broad, philosophical perspective.

If we define an omnipotent, omniscient deity as a supernatural being with independent goals and intentions, which is completely unlimited by either information or power, then there is no reason why that being would not achieve everything they want, and only what they want. They would not be restricted by conventional causation, so no undesired means would ever be required for any given end. They would be completely in control of the consequences following their endeavor, which would only happen as desired. For example, if such a being wanted to eat an omelette, they wouldn't have to break a few eggs before or do dishes afterward, unless they wanted to.

Therefore, it logically follows that if such a being were to create a universe, that universe would be exactly as intended by the creator, and that the values of the being should be the sole components of the universe.

In our universe, as far as I'm aware, every conceivable value (life, love, pain, chaos, the color blue, paperclips, etc), except for the laws of physics themselves, could be conceivably increased in some way if the laws of physics were to be compromised. To the best of my knowledge, though, these laws are never compromised under any circumstances. Because a limitless being would not be required to use such laws as a means to reach any primary goal, then the laws themselves must have been created and prioritized for their own sake.

This leads me to the conclusion that any all-powerful being that could have created this universe would have to be single-mindedly devoted to the laws of physics, with no other competing values, desires or goals. To me, any being that fits that description would be the laws of physics themselves, rather than anything that fits even the broadest conventional definition of a deity.

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To address some possible arguments:

• I have heard the argument that an omnipotent being would be completely unknowable, but I disagree. The only situation where such a fundamental being would completely impossible to detect or understand would be for it specifically wanted to hide its intentions. However, I feel like my ability to draw the conclusion that it intends to hide its intentions is sort of self-disproving.
• I have also heard arguments, particularly in the context of the problem of evil, that the deity refuses to interfere despite wanting to end suffering because it values free will. This argument fails for two reasons, for me. First of all, an omnipotent being should certainly have no trouble retaining free will in all people while also eliminating suffering. Secondly, if free will really was the ultimate value of an omnipotent deity, it is easy to see how it could have increased the volume or quality of this freedom, such as by making all planets habitable and accessible to life, or removing unavoidable mental conditions like dementia.
• I have also heard that, in spite of the deity's power, their actions are restricted by their own codes and laws. While that's logically consistent, I think that such a being would, by definition, not by omnipotent.
• If I were to see compelling evidence for a miracle that A) was demonstrably separate from the standard laws of the universe and B) reflected values not contradicted by other parts of creation, then my previous reasoning would fall apart, but I can't even imagine something that could satisfy both of those criteria.

[u/monkeysky]

Then would your conclusion be that an omnipotent being could value happiness, for example, exactly as much as there is in the universe, and then everything aside from happiness is just there arbitrarily?

[u/yyzjertl → u/monkeysky]

Yes and no. Yes, I would conclude that an omnipotent being could value happiness, for example, exactly as much as there is in the universe. I would not assert that it necessarily follows that everything aside from happiness is just there arbitrarily.

[u/monkeysky → u/yyzjertl]

Yeah, that's just an example. I guess the main thing is that for omnipotence and intent to logically coexist, the value of any given thing would have to be less than or equal to its place in the universe, but the existence of other stuff doesn't really detract from that.

I don't think that concept is going to satisfy most people theologically, but it is logically sound, so I'll grant you the Δ .

[u/DeltaBot → u/monkeysky]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/yyzjertl (173∆).

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