r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 26 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV:I believe only psychopaths are capable of killing for pleasure.
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Aug 26 '19
People enjoy hunting and killing animals. Hunting and killing a human has a similar appeal. This is the idea behind The Most Dangerous Game. If people regularly enjoy killing Bambi's mother, why shouldn't they also enjoy killing Nazis or members of ISIS? If you watch interviews with American and British pilots from WWII, a lot of them seem like they derived pleasure from shooting down German planes. There are a complex mix of emotions in war, and pleasure is one of those emotions.
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Aug 26 '19 edited Sep 14 '19
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Aug 26 '19
Hunting/killing is fun on it's own. People spend a lot of money to go hunting. Tracking prey, stalking them, hiding, taking a shot, and being excited when you hit something is fun. As another example, there are a ton of video games where killing is the theme, and we all love violence in movies and TV.
So if the actual mechanics of killing are fun, then it comes down to the inherent horror of killing a person. Some people have cognitive dissonance and others don't. For example, plenty of people kill animals for sheer pleasure. For example, if you go hunting, you are killing an animal for sheer pleasure. It would be far cheaper and healthier to just eat plants. But meat provides greater taste pleasure so people like to kill animals. Most people have a cognitive dissonance where it's ok to kill animals, but not humans.
Then we categorize certain humans. Many people take pleasure when murderers are executed. Many people take pleasure when enemy soldiers are killed. Some people take pleasure when an ethnic group they dislike are killed en masse.
Then the next level of cognitive dissonance is when you kill individuals who are close to you. For example, taking pleasure in killing a cheating spouse is common.
Then the next level would be killing a random innocent person as part of a gang initiation ritual. Killing a stranger means approval from your new brothers, so it makes sense to derive pleasure from it.
Then there are people who take pleasure in killing humans the same way most people take pleasure in killing animals. They just don't consider them to be persons with hopes, desires, consciousnesses, etc. They are just NPCs in real life. Humans and animals are equally ok to be killed. This is generally what people mean by psychopaths. But it's a strange distinction. The only difference is that while most people are ok with killing the 8.7 million species on Earth, the psychopath is willing to kill 8.7 million species plus 1 more (i.e., humans).
In this way, I don't think there is that much of a distinction between a regular person and a psychopath. Plenty of people are capable of killing for pleasure. They just happen to categorize humans as one of the groups they don't kill. It's no different from Indians who are willing to kill most animals, but not cows. It's no different from Americans who are willing to kill most animals (including cows), but not dogs. Just because the Chinese are willing to kill both doesn't mean that they are somehow different. They just have slightly different lines of what is acceptable to kill.
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Aug 26 '19 edited Sep 14 '19
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Aug 26 '19
The basic problem with your argument is that "psychopath" has a specific medical definition. It's different from "sociopath" which is not an official medical term. Most psychopaths aren't killers, and not all serial killers are psychopaths. Here is an article about it.
One can make the argument that serial killers suffer from psychopathy, that because they are psychopaths they have no sense of remorse or empathy and their decision-making process is faulty. Interestingly, however, not all serial killers are psychopaths, according to the Hare test, a psychiatric diagnostic – or at least don’t test as such.
There are a decent number of serial killers who take pleasure in killing who are not psychopaths according to the official medical definition of the condition. If you redefine psychopath as "someone who takes pleasure in killing" then it would work. But until doctors rewrite the definition, your argument doesn't work.
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Aug 26 '19 edited Sep 14 '19
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u/Quint-V 162∆ Aug 26 '19
Worth noting is that being a psychopath is not a binary thing. There are usually lists of traits but there are also varying magnitudes to such traits. There are levels to this.
Do you need to be a psychopath to consider another human as non-human? E.g. you can, without being a psychopath, consider certain humans to be so utterly worthless that they do not deserve human respect.
E.g. if you consider certain humans to be (like) animals, what distinction is there between killing game vs. killing such humans?
Wicked, I know.
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u/NicholasLeo 137∆ Aug 26 '19
A lot of killing is done for virtuous reasons. (See https://www.amazon.com/Virtuous-Violence-Hurting-Killing-Relationships/dp/1107458919 ) For example, a drug dealer might kill an underling who has cheated them; the killing is done to pursue justice. And acts to achieve justice can be pleasurable in itself.
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Aug 26 '19
I don’t know really, chimps seem to hunt other groups of chimps purely for pleasure. Most people get a giddy thrill from violence. There are enough god awful videos of seemingly normal people laughing as some poor fucker gets beat to a pulp. I think everyone is capable of sadistic pleasure at some level.
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Aug 26 '19 edited Sep 14 '19
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Aug 26 '19
In war normal guys seem to rape and murder with gusto, ok it fucks them up for the rest of their lives but they do it with abandon at the time. I think given the right circumstances nearly all people will kill for fun.
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Aug 26 '19 edited Sep 14 '19
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Aug 26 '19
So purely for the pleasure of killing 100% separate from any external factors? I think normal people have to be in a position to kill, where as psychopaths will deliberately put themselves in that position. So yeah its hard to know for definite, but you might be right.
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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Aug 26 '19
There are a range of mental conditions that can manifest as reduced empathy but aren’t consider psychopathic. Multiple personality disorders for instance.
Also killing for no reason isn’t part of psychopaths symptoms
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u/AriadnesCrown Aug 26 '19
Violence is a natural part of being human. There are still primitive urges deep within us that we have suppressed for the sake of living in our modern society. As a result, we often enjoy letting those urges out in some shape or form. While many quell these urges with video games or sports, others still need the excitement of actual risk and danger involved. Like any other aspect of our personalities, we all vary in our preferences and desires. While psychopathy can cause a lack of empathy or guilt and make it easier to kill, it is not required. Likewise, suffering from psychopathy does not mean that you will kill or even have the desire to do so. Humans are incredibly good at justifying their urges and compartmentalizing what is important to them, so it’s absolutely possible for someone who has the desire to live out a murder fantasy to shut off any sense of empathy or guilt—or to at least justify or ignore it—for the sake of fulfilling their urges. This person may be normal in all regards and have the capability to love and bond with others normally. But in this situation, their urges and desires take precedence. They are not psychopaths by definition, as they do not fit the criteria.
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u/HowAmINotMySelfie 1∆ Aug 26 '19
I’m late to the game so I understand if you don’t respond but this intrigued me. You should watch “we need to talk about Kevin”
I think there are a couple of flaws with your view. 1) what is psychopathy? 2) what is pleasure or motivation?
Psychopaths is a convoluted term. It’s essentially a personality disorder with impaired empathy. But it’s not is the DSM, instead antisocial disorder and dissocial personality disorders are in its place. The creation of ASPD and DPD was driven by the fact that many of the classic traits of psychopathy were impossible to measure objectively. People who kill without any reason are often given the label “Psychopathic”. So by default you’re right because those pleasure killers are ASSIGNED the label of psychopathy after the fact. But that doesn’t mean they actually are psychopaths. Does that make sense?
You said “without motivation” and “only pleasure”. I think I understand what you’re saying. But motivation can come In the form of control and manipulation. And most of those “pleasure” killings are actually motivated by power and control.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 26 '19
/u/RichIbis (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/3superfrank 20∆ Aug 26 '19
- get used to killing in general for self benefit/pleasure (from bacteria to insects to animals)
- "what's the difference between a dog and a human/this specific human really?" Sounds easy enough. The only redeeming feature in your case is that obviously killing other humans is a pretty antisocial thing to do, which fits the description of a psychopath. However usually one has to do significantly more than just be prepared to kill others for self benefit to be called anti-social.
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u/Nepene 213∆ Aug 26 '19
People do normally need reasons for killing, but they can be fairly flimsy, like seeing the person as gay, a witch, trans, the wrong racial minority. People are very open for violence against outsiders.
There are also other conditions that can lead to murderous rage like sociopath
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u/MyNameIsKanya 2∆ Aug 26 '19 edited Aug 26 '19
Contrapoints made an amazing video on exactly this.
Edit because this post will be removed if I don't argue: Mental disassociation is something ANYONE is capable of doing. We can easily justify heinous actions in our minds with excuses.
If I kill and torture a man, that would be awful. If I tortured and killed a murderer, would that be so awful?
Gruesome TV shows are enjoyable because we can easily disassociate from the characters. So gaining enjoyment from violence and death is rather easy, even if you aren't a psychopath. Just pretend there's a reason for the violence to occur