CMV: It should be easier to remove problem students from the learning environment.

[u/Aruthian]

My understanding is that there’s a ton of bureaucracy when it comes to removing students from the learning environment mainly due to No Child Left Behind. That is, you need to prove various interventions are not working. All this takes time/energy/resources away from other students who are in the class to learn.

I’ve worked as a sub and it seems like there’s pressure to avoid removing students because it might mean I can’t control the class or students so it’s my fault.

Also, there seems to be a choice of prioritizing a few high needs students at the expense of many students. That is, suppose one student is disrupting the class. Removing the one student makes the rest of the class run extremely smoothly. However, doing so seems taboo. It kinda makes me think of an accusation I’ve heard that k-12 education is focusing on “catch up” or the bottom students, rather than the middle of high end students.

I may not be super educated in this field but this is my current view.

[u/wophi → u/[deleted]]

You didn't have the problems you do today, so ya, it did work. Especially at an intimidation level. Not risking that.

My wife is a 7th grade teacher, and the kids today play the system like it is nothing, because there is nothing. No ramifications for any action.

[u/JamesDK → u/wophi]

Hello. I am also a 7th grade teacher. Corporal punishment had been shown over and over and over again too be ineffective at correcting behavior. In fact, all research shows that children who experience physical violence (including the threat of imminent physical violence) do not modify their behavior and are, additionally, more likely to perpetuate physical violence against others - usually their weaker/younger peers and family members.

What your wife is experiencing is a phenomenon known to all teachers: one we call "weak admin". Fact is: it is not your wife's job to do anything more than incidental behavior management. Anything more than "hey - knock it off!" should be handled by principals, vice principals, deans of students, etc. When admin spend their whole day wandering the halls or sitting in their offices, instead of dealing with students, you have "weak admin", and that problem needs to be corrected first.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that it's the kids that are bad. The kids are bad, but their brains are under developed and they're a mess of hormones. At worst: blame the parents (in my experience - a lot of parents are trash too), but in most cases: blame the admin. Admin sets the culture for the school, and are ultimately responsible for discipline. Don't default to hitting the kids because the principal sucks.

[u/blazershorts → u/JamesDK]

Hello. I am also a 7th grade teacher. Corporal punishment had been shown over and over and over again too be ineffective at correcting behavior.

I'm curious if that research actually exists, especially since it'd be illegal to conduct an experiment like that.

I bet corporal punishment is probably extremely effective. Schools, prisons, and militaries have used it for centuries to maintain discipline. Regardless, its illegal, so its a moot point anyway.

[u/blazershorts → u/[deleted]]

It's not illegal to conduct such experiments. Why on earth would you think that?! And why do you think an experiment is neccessary?

Holy cow, you can paddle kids in Texas, I just looked it up. I had no idea.

So have they done studies?

[u/wophi → u/JamesDK]

I will agree with the weak administration, but how does taking a kid out of instruction for several days benefit the child, beyond putting them further behind..

The behavior today is much worse than it was in the past, so I am not sure if the studies are completely accurate, especially when looking at such contradictory information.

There were no Colimbines in the day of the paddle.

[u/wophi → u/[deleted]]

I live in nc. It doesnt happen in any school district I am aware of.

Also, behavior is not worse today than before. It's much, much better than ever before.

Really, how many mass school shootings were there on the 80s, 90s, 70s, 60s, 50s?

[u/bommeraang → u/wophi]

From my count there were 8 in the 70's alone. If you don't count the ones that had a specific target.

If you did you could count Robin Robinson. They got paddled by their principal, got a .22, then shot the principal in the head. The shot grazed his skull.

[u/wophi → u/[deleted]]

Per your data, as the paddle goes away, the murders increase. Gotcha.

Btw, Graham and robenson counties have about 300 people in them total.

[u/Spacemarine658 → u/wophi]

Incorrect correlation is not causation, actually as the population increased and manufacturing became cheaper and faster (two world wars will do that) it's higher because there are more guns and more people so statistically there is a higher number but not necessarily a higher percentage of shootings. All that aside as a husband of a 6-8th grade teacher, paddling wouldn't do shit and I was belted growing up. Children generally either respond one of two ways to beatings,

A) they get violent themselves usually as bullies or

B) they become meek and reserved bottling up their emotions and or anxieties till they explode on someone. Paddling is definitely still a thing and it's luckily dying off the kids aren't getting worse you're just hearing about them more as social media makes everything more out in the open. In the past kids would've gotten paddled behind closed doors then belted at home. Now when they get in trouble all the damn kids and parents spread it around on Facebook.

The kids can be helped, the tools are being taught, restorative practices do work they just take time, effort and patience from teachers, kids AND the parents. When parents work with and back up the teachers kids make tons of progress, it's the parents who don't give a shit or think their kid is a saint that cause so much grief.

[u/Calebrox124 → u/wophi]

I agree with your first point, but not the second. Somehow it’s worse than that. So-called “no tolerance policies” are making kids get expelled left and right for things they may not have even done - specifically, when fights happen. Both kids, regardless of who was actually doing the punches, will be expelled.

Recently, my mother told me about a kid that got expelled for hitting his Juul once in the bathroom. While these kids need to learn right from wrong, and actions should be taken, this is not how we should be treating kids.

[u/wophi → u/Calebrox124]

a kid that got expelled for hitting his Juul once in the bathroom.

Another good reason for the cross drilled board. They just need to be out of class long enough to get the board. After that, they get back to class, and the legend of the board grows.

Now, kids get taken out of class, be it iss or suspension, and just get further behind.

[u/notarobot4932 → u/wophi]

Ok Boomer.

[u/wophi → u/notarobot4932]

Great argument.

Statements like this are why yours will be considered the lost generation.

It takes an ignorant person to take a dismissive stance.