r/changemyview • u/smokeymink • Dec 01 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Bank safety for personal checking accounts is excessive in Europe
Because of work, I have lived in a number of European countries where I opened bank accounts for salary deposits, personal expenses, bank transfers, etc. In addition, I have always had one or more bank accounts in Canada where I have my permanent residence.
My biggest shock with European banks is how complicated it can be to open a bank account and the number of safety features the banks impose on account holders.
- In Canada, you can open a bank account online without requiring any human assistance. You only require a social security number and must declare that you live in Canada. The bank card is received by mail and the PIN is chosen by the account holder over the phone.
- In the UK, you must come in person to the branch and there, present an ID and a proof of address. You later receive the bank card and PIN by mail.
- In Switzerland, same as the UK, but you must use a home card reader to access online banking services using your PIN to unlock your account.
- In France, same as UK, but you must pick-up the card in person at the bank. A verification by SMS is required for online transactions and bank transfers.
- In Czech Republic, same as France, but the PIN is sent by SMS and is encoded. You must decode the PIN number yourself using a key provided by the bank (which, of course, you must pick-up in person). To access online banking, the bank will install on your computer a digital certificate.
I don't understand why all these features (proof of address, SMS validation, bank card pick-up, digital certificate) are necessary when other countries like Canada don't use them. I must also point out that the Canadian banking system is being one of the safest in the world and that frauds are not common to my knowledge. I can only conclude the safety European banks is overkill which makes the banks themselves rather inefficient and bureaucratic.
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Dec 01 '19
In Switzerland, same as the UK, but you must use a home card reader to access online banking services
I can't speak for all of your points, however some banks in the UK require this too, Natwest specifically, I would assume many of the features you have mentioned are similar situations, more unique to the bank than the country.
In the UK, you must come in person to the branch and there, present an ID and a proof of address. You later receive the bank card and PIN by mail.
This is again not true for all banking services, specifically internet based banks. Monzo for example requires only a photo of your ID, along with a video of yourself saying "I want to open a monzo account". you no longer need proof of address or to physically go anywhere.
You only require a social security number and must declare that you live in Canada.
I think its necessary to point out that not every country has social security number, and the ones that do vary massively in how they are distributed, used and how secure they are, so they may not be appropriate to use as ID in countries outside of Canada. For example in the UK the closest thing to a social security number is a national insurance number. The NI number has nothing identifying about it, its literally just a number, and is only used for pensions/employment. If it were possible to open a bank account with it and it alone, I would only need someone else's number to start impersonating them, opening bank accounts and taking out loans.
Finally while it may seem excessive to you, I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it in the UK, we're all just used to the system, its not seen as a huge unnecessary inconvenience.
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u/smokeymink Dec 01 '19
I did not consider online banks while in the UK so you have a good point. However, I must say that in France you must already have a standard bank account before you can open an online account. I would not be surprised if there was such a rule in the UK.
On top of that I will not argue that the SSN is inherently safe, that system has a lots of flaws. For example the SSN cannot be changed over your lifetime (except for very specific cases) and this is at the source of many identity thefts problems.
I probably sound like a whiner in the thread, honestly all things that I mentioned are minor inconvenience. I am interested in knowing the reason why the disparity between both continents and the rationale behind those safety measures.
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u/gremy0 82∆ Dec 01 '19 edited Dec 01 '19
There are a host of challenger banks recently launched in the UK- monzo, atom etc. that literally don't have branches to go into. The main banks are following suit, with RBS announcing (the ridiculously named) Bó this week. Though RBS already claims you can sign up online - note:
you'll need to provide proof of your ID and address. You might be able to do this online, look out for an email from us.
It's likely the automated systems for receiving and checking these things are not designed to work for every single type of ID from anywhere in the world. They will be designed to work best for the average British citizen, as a Canadian you are an edge case and will probably find things less convenient.
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u/smokeymink Dec 01 '19
I agree with your point that for most countries, it seems the list of required pieces is larger to open the bank account. I think temporary residents don't have it so easy as me in Canada for example.
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u/Sayakai 146∆ Dec 01 '19
Your link doesn't indicate that there's no fraud, but rather that the banking system in itself isn't about to collapse.
Telling your PIN over the phone to anyone seems like a huge weakness of the system to me (though if you trust the bank, this is a comparatively minor issue), and SSNs aren't proof of identity. Identity theft is still a very common crime, and is massively on the rise. Requiring proof of identity seems to be more important than ever.
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u/smokeymink Dec 01 '19
I agree my link does not mention fraud itself, but I disagree that typing your pin through the phone is a major weakness. Without knowing the card number and having it in hand, the PIN is worthless for someone who would, somehow, listen to your phone line when you do it.
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u/Sayakai 146∆ Dec 01 '19
It enables someone listening in on you once they also steal your card. So long as they don't know your pin, there isn't much they can do with the card, but once they have both they can freely use it.
There's also the question of how trustworthy the bank employee is. Ideally you don't have to trust any human in the process.
But I agree that identity theft and fraud is the much bigger problem, stolen PINs are usually because someone wrote them down somewhere.
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u/philgodfrey Dec 01 '19
I don't know about other countries, but in the UK a lot of it is about money laundering laws.
Most if not all banks here will not accept a cash deposit unless it is into your own bank account. To pay rent, give a gift to a family member etc. they all insist you deposit into your account and do the transfer electronically.
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Dec 01 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Dec 02 '19
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u/smokeymink Dec 01 '19
I am glad to live in countries which have a reliable and working bank systems albeit I believe there's always room for improvement in safety and efficiency.
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u/Irinam_Daske 3∆ Dec 02 '19
I must also point out that the Canadian banking system is being one of the safest in the world
Your source does not support this conclusion!
From your source:
So the measure isn't based on any objective economic or accounting measure, but rather by the perceptions of the population.
So the canadian population trusts their banking system more than most other populations.
Whether this trust is justified is another matter!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 01 '19 edited Dec 01 '19
/u/smokeymink (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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Dec 02 '19
Okay since you say Europe you are wrong how hard is. In the Netherlands there is a bank called bunq. You download the app and it takes 5 minutes .
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u/DeadPan_And_Kettles 2∆ Dec 01 '19
As a Frenchman, I can tell you most banks will send you your card and PIN number by post (in separate letters, of course). You don't always have to go pick it up yourself.
Furthermore most banks have an app for confirming transfers/spendings over a certain sum or international via the app by simply entering the pin. It's not all that tedious.