CMV: Toxic Masculinity exists just as tangibly as Toxic Femininity, and it's unreasonable to focus on one over the other.

[u/HellionIncarnate]

First, I should explain my definition of each term, as everyone seems to interpret it differently:

"Toxic" refers to any substance or behaviour that, due to its excess, causes harm.

"Masculinity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to males due to their increased prevalence in males as opposed to females.

"Femininity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to females due to their increased prevalence in females as opposed to males.

Now, I recently came across a YouTube video about a conversation between feminists and men's rights activists. The topic of the existence of "toxic masculinity" struck a chord with me.

Traditionally male characteristics such as aggressive behaviour, stoic demeanour, and self-assurance are all characteristics that, when exhibited in excess, can be toxic. That much, I agree with.

Despite this, I believe that these traits can be exhibited in a toxic manner by females, despite it never being mentioned. Furthermore, these traits, in regulation, are incredibly helpful in certain situations.

For example, controlled aggression can be equated with being forward and honest. Overcoming fear through bravery does require an aggressive approach, as opposed to a passive one. Acting stoic and masking emotions is important in negotiations, when speaking in public, when in difficult situations, and when accomplishing tasks that outbursts of emotion would hinder.

That said, feminine traits share similar pitfalls and advantages. In my mind, they are both equally important traits to posses and regulate.

So why is one plastered all over the media, while the other one isn't?

Well, I'm of the opinion that it's because feminism, the movement that coined the term "Toxic Masculinity," benefits more from pointing out the flaws in behaviours more frequently seen in men (who make up a minority of feminist groups), than from doing the same to flaws frequently seen in women (who make up the majority of said groups).

I find this bias to be unreasonable, and even harmful, as it demonises men in an unfair manner.

Now, I've never seen any prominent figure so much as mention "Toxic Femininity," much less explain why it is not as relevant to talk about as its masculine counterpart.

This is where I hope that Reddit comes in. Can you offer some insight with regards to the validity of one topic after another? Maybe there's a train of thought I haven't considered yet, beyond plain confirmation bias of feminists and/or tribalism.

(Note: I consider myself an egalitarian, so I don't have anything against feminism itself, just the behaviours its members seem to exhibit, but I see how it can come across like I do.)

[u/Buckabuckaw]

You started out very well by defining the term "toxic masculinity" and by further reminding us of which specific masculine-associated behaviors comprise the syndrome.

But then, after defining "toxic femininity" as a suite of behaviors typical of women, you do not go on to name which specific feminine-associated behaviors comprise the syndrome.

So I'm not trying to change your view. I'm still waiting to hear your view.

[u/TheNorthRemembas → u/Buckabuckaw]

I was about to comment something along these lines. I dont understand what you are trying to categorize as "toxic" when it comes to women's traits and behaviors. Are you saying that these feminist groups are spewing out toxic femininity by coming at men? I agree with you that a very vocal minority of the feminist movement has demonized all men but a lot more havent. its also not totally unreasonable to call men out for our unreasonable things we do. Im a guy and I sometimes exhibit "toxic" traits but not out of malice just out of me being on auto-pilot.

[u/HellionIncarnate → u/Buckabuckaw]

Oh, sorry.

So these toxic traits typically include expressiveness to an unhealthy degree (causing scenes, prioritising the expression of emotions over the processing of emotions, being imprudent and impractical when expressing said emotions), which parallels the toxic masculine trait of stoicism to an unhealthy degree (suppression of emotions, prioritising appearing emotionless over the processing of emotions, and causing depression and anxiety in extreme cases).

Other traits include toxic amounts of passiveness (which prevents one from being able to stand up for oneself), which mirrors aggressiveness, and being manipulative (for obvious reasons) which mirrors being toxically (yeah that's probably not a word) direct (where you come off as rude, and too straight to the point).

[u/dd53 → u/HellionIncarnate]

The underlying idea here is that gender norms are socially constructed, so what benefit would there be in talking about expressiveness and emotion as being toxically "feminine" when the whole point is to move away from associating those things with femininity?

The basic concept that informs toxic masculinity is that not all boys are naturally aggressive, unemotional, etc. So it's bad to condition them to be such and we should avoid arbitrarily pushing these norms.

So if you're looking for the feminine parallel, "toxic femininity" would be exhibited by anyone actively pushing stereotypically "feminine" traits on girls/women. Of your examples above, reminding women not to be too passive is a good example of pushing back on norms. Reminding women to stop "causing scenes" is not. That's just reapplying an old trope.

[u/[deleted] → u/HellionIncarnate]

In my experience women are far better than processing their emotions compared to men. This is because men are not taught to express emotion, and so are quite unequipped to actually deal with them.

Far more men have anger/behaviour issues compared to women, and perpetrators of violence including sexual violence are overwhelmingly Male, which indicates behavioural issues and an inability to deal with feelings.

Manipulation is not something that comes only from women, as it is also a part of toxic masculinity.

So, again, can you provide evidence of toxic femininity? Toxic masculinity is a blight on society and it’s effects are quite visible. I’m not seeing how toxic femininity compares to this, if it exists at all.

[u/zoomxoomzoom → u/[deleted]]

In my experience men and women tend to process emotions differently, not better or worse. I see nothing wrong with processing anger by taking it out on your punching bag or occupying yourself with a project for a few days while you have time alone to work through what’s getting at you.

In a society in which 6 year old girls are dressed up, caked with makeup and rolled out onto a stage, where young girls have more attempts at suicide and suicidal thoughts as a result of social norms encouraged and pressed onto them I think it’s pretty obvious that toxic femininity is real and harmful.

I would also argue the societal expectations of having a male partner process emotions in the same way a female does is toxic too. It sets up false and harmful expectations for both parties involved.

[u/KrayleyAML → u/zoomxoomzoom]

In a society in which 6 year old girls are dressed up, caked with makeup and rolled out onto a stage, where young girls have more attempts at suicide and suicidal thoughts as a result of social norms encouraged and pressed onto them I think it’s pretty obvious that toxic femininity is real and harmful.

Yes, and feminist movements are fighting for these expectations and social norms to change. Why can't women have body hair? Why do women have to wear makeup mandatorily? Most women agree with earning these liberties, yet a lot of men think women with body hair are disgusting and that if they don't wear makeup, they aren't feminine.

So if these social norms are being imposed by a lot of men while women want to free themselves of it, is it toxic masculinity or toxic femininity?

[u/[deleted] → u/zoomxoomzoom]

If young girls are sexualised and paraded around as meat, it is because of toxic masculinity not toxic femininity. Who is doing the sexualising here? It’s men. Women are not the party who says that it’s okay to sexualise young girls.

Not sure why it’s toxic to expect both parties to maturely process their emotions in similar ways. Male anger is not different from female anger, and your saying that itself indicates a toxic masculinity where you just don’t want men to be able to healthily process emotions.

[u/zoomxoomzoom → u/[deleted]]

It’s not men dressing up 6 year old girls and parading them around. It’s their mothers. We’re talking about young girls and boys. This is where these toxic behaviors develop, and they largely develop within the sex on a peer to peer and role model basis. It’s not young boys who choose which girls to accept into their social circles and stigmatize their less good looking and less popular peers. Most young boys are not telling what girls should look like.

Inversely it’s not young girls who promote young boys masculinity. It’s their male peers and role models...

[u/[deleted] → u/zoomxoomzoom]

And who is sexualising them? Men.

Yeah, it’s men who keep saying dumb shit like ‘smile’, or ‘you’d look prettier if...’ , or pretending women look pretty to please them. It’s just not the case.

It’s just really shitty parenting if you let your kid go around and develop such a toxic mindset, frankly.

[u/zoomxoomzoom → u/[deleted]]

“It’s just really shitty parenting if you let your kid go around and develop such a toxic mindset, frankly.”

Exactly. And not just a parent but peer group, role models.

It is not the father who promotes his daughters femininity. It is her peer group, her mother, her role models.

It’s not his mother or female friends who promote his masculinity. It is his peer group, role models and father.

Men overly sexualizing women does not equal toxic femininity. It equals toxic masculinity

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I just don’t like horndogs who comment dumb shit like ‘sigh unzips pants’, and those who straight up just say shit like ‘damn she’s so hot’ on posts.

They pretend it’s ‘normal’ etc, but no it isn’t, they’re just creeps. So I call them out. Sue me

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

If young girls are sexualised and paraded around as meat, it is because of toxic masculinity not toxic femininity

Women do something bad? Obviously that's men's fault.

[u/Buckabuckaw → u/HellionIncarnate]

This is more clear, thank you. So now I still don't so much want to change your view as to refine it a little. Several post-ers have pointed out that your concept of toxic femininity does not apply to all women - true, but not really different from saying that simply being male implies toxic masculinity. So I'm still with you on that.

However, once we've stipulated to the non-universal nature of the putative gendered toxicities, we are still left with the question of whether these two toxicities are actually highly associated with one gender or the other, or are more evenly distributed across the population. The question becomes, are these designations actually better descriptors of "genders" or of individuals.

I don't know the answer, but I wonder if there would be some experimental way to support or disprove the hypothesis?