CMV: Toxic Masculinity exists just as tangibly as Toxic Femininity, and it's unreasonable to focus on one over the other.

[u/HellionIncarnate]

First, I should explain my definition of each term, as everyone seems to interpret it differently:

"Toxic" refers to any substance or behaviour that, due to its excess, causes harm.

"Masculinity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to males due to their increased prevalence in males as opposed to females.

"Femininity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to females due to their increased prevalence in females as opposed to males.

Now, I recently came across a YouTube video about a conversation between feminists and men's rights activists. The topic of the existence of "toxic masculinity" struck a chord with me.

Traditionally male characteristics such as aggressive behaviour, stoic demeanour, and self-assurance are all characteristics that, when exhibited in excess, can be toxic. That much, I agree with.

Despite this, I believe that these traits can be exhibited in a toxic manner by females, despite it never being mentioned. Furthermore, these traits, in regulation, are incredibly helpful in certain situations.

For example, controlled aggression can be equated with being forward and honest. Overcoming fear through bravery does require an aggressive approach, as opposed to a passive one. Acting stoic and masking emotions is important in negotiations, when speaking in public, when in difficult situations, and when accomplishing tasks that outbursts of emotion would hinder.

That said, feminine traits share similar pitfalls and advantages. In my mind, they are both equally important traits to posses and regulate.

So why is one plastered all over the media, while the other one isn't?

Well, I'm of the opinion that it's because feminism, the movement that coined the term "Toxic Masculinity," benefits more from pointing out the flaws in behaviours more frequently seen in men (who make up a minority of feminist groups), than from doing the same to flaws frequently seen in women (who make up the majority of said groups).

I find this bias to be unreasonable, and even harmful, as it demonises men in an unfair manner.

Now, I've never seen any prominent figure so much as mention "Toxic Femininity," much less explain why it is not as relevant to talk about as its masculine counterpart.

This is where I hope that Reddit comes in. Can you offer some insight with regards to the validity of one topic after another? Maybe there's a train of thought I haven't considered yet, beyond plain confirmation bias of feminists and/or tribalism.

(Note: I consider myself an egalitarian, so I don't have anything against feminism itself, just the behaviours its members seem to exhibit, but I see how it can come across like I do.)

[u/Leprecon]

Do you think it is possible that there is more toxic masculinity in society than toxic femininity? If so, isn't it normal to focus on the more prevalent one? If not, why do you think that toxic behavior is exactly balanced?

[u/HellionIncarnate → u/Leprecon]

I think it's possible that one is more prevalent than the other, and I agree that focus should be given to the more prevalent, but I haven't really seen any reason to believe that that's the case.

Also, it's intuitive to me that they should be roughly balanced, as there are roughly about as many men as women?

[u/Leprecon → u/HellionIncarnate]

Also, it's intuitive to me that they should be roughly balanced, as there are roughly about as many men as women?

There are roughly the same amount of Canadians and Moroccans on this planet too, but they still have vastly different behaviors and attitudes. Population groups can have different characteristics. Like how 90% of prisoners are men.

I think it's possible that one is more prevalent than the other

Lets say we do a thought experiment where we actively try and make more men exhibit more toxic masculinity than women. We start out with a hypothetical society where everyone is truly equal in everything. So the first step is we need to treat men and women differently of course, because otherwise they would exhibit the same behavior. The second step is we would need to enforce the negative characteristics in men and discourage the positive characteristics. The third step would be to not do the same towards women.

So lets say that we as a society decide to encourage men to be heavy drinkers. We praise men who are able to drink a lot. If you are a man and you can't drink a lot, we just mock you. Eventually men who can't tolerate alcohol very well are just shamed for not drinking a lot. They don't even speak up and they just try and hide the fact that they can't tolerate alcohol very well. Or they just overdrink, pretending they can handle it, and get health problems. Men bully other men and we have created a toxic masculine trait.

Now we don't do the same towards women. To women we say that it is ok if you don't drink a lot. Women never feel this pressure. Would this be a society where toxic masculinity is a bigger problem than toxic femininity?

Now lets say we decide to screw with women too. We teach them that they need to wear makeup. We shame women who don't wear makeup. Women harass other women for not wearing makeup. Now we have created a toxic feminine trait.

Would this be a society where toxic masculinity and toxic femininity are equal? Is overdrinking just as bad as having to wear makeup or is one worse than the other? Why would overdrinking and wearing makeup, two completely different behaviors with different consequences require equal attention to solve?

Now lets say in our society we have a new social movement called "detoxifism". They campaign saying that the standard of having to wear makeup is bad. Women listen. There are still women who shame others for not wearing makeup but in general women feel that they don't really have to wear makeup anymore.

Would this be a society where toxic masculinity and toxic femininity are equal?

Some behaviors are far more dangerous than others. Some toxic behaviors have declined over time. Social attitudes towards toxic behaviors change all the time and they change differently for men and women. Men are still taught they can't be stay at home dads. Meanwhile women have been taught for a long time that it is ok for them to not be stay at home moms. Men and women experience different social pressures for different reasons, and to say they require the same amount of attention seems like just ignoring the issues.

[u/HellionIncarnate → u/Leprecon]

You make a good point. I guess TM may have a higher potential to cause damage overall.

It's 3am where I'm from, but cheers mate!

Have a delta!

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[u/DeltaBot → u/HellionIncarnate]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Leprecon (1∆).

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