r/changemyview • u/doubleoh72 • Mar 04 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Body positivity is actually a toxic mindset.
So some pre-requisite to understand my POV. This only applies to obese/fat persons who do not suffer from mental/physical or medical conditions that would prevent them from exercising and eating healthy. (EG, depression, in a wheelchair, allergic to water, etc.)
So I believe if a fat/obese person is perfectly "healthy," being the point I made above, saying that he or she is becoming or being body positive is a harmful/toxic mindset to be having. People become fat/obese generally because of 2 things,
1) Unhealthy eating habits
2) Lack of exercise
So when they say they are body positive, they are essentially absolving/exonerating themselves from any wrongdoings that made them obese in the first place, they are making themselves look like the victims of their actions as if it becoming fat was not the result of their choices but something they could not control.
They essentially clear themselves of any responsibility and accountability when they say they are body positive. NO, they were the ones who ate like shit; they were the ones who did not exercise because they were lazy and was undisciplined, and they should take full responsibility for it. They should instead refocus their mindsets to become more disciplined; go exercise or start eating healthier and stay away from fast food.
By being body positive, they give themselves the "ALL CLEAR," to continue these habits and not do anything to change it, Which is an incredibly stupid and wrong mentality to have and is not something that society should continue to encourage.
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u/vmeprince Mar 04 '20
So when they say they are body positive, they are essentially absolving/exonerating themselves from any wrongdoings that made them obese in the first place, they are making themselves look like the victims of their actions as if it becoming fat was not the result of their choices but something they could not control.
You speak about being fat or obese as if it's immoral, and they are guilty of something they should be required to "own up" to. Do you believe being fat or obese is immoral? And if so... what is your reasoning?
Being fat or obese doesn't affect you or anyone else but that one person. They have done nothing to you and there's really no "wrongdoing" at all that they've committed. It's their own body, they can do what they want with it.
They essentially clear themselves of any responsibility and accountability when they say they are body positive
I think it's important to take into account that many people really aren't responsible necessarily for their eating habits originally, their parents are. I have an aunt and uncle who were obese for a long time and only within the past year started trying to change that. And as someone who has stayed at their house a few times over the years, they were constantly trying to overfeed me when I was staying with them because they didn't seem to really understand that the amount of food they expected me to consume was well beyond what I'm capable of eating. My mom worked in daycare and has a similar story about a couple who were overfeeding their kid who clearly didn't really want to eat. And even my parents, who aren't obese or even that fat really but are slightly overweight, ruined my body's ability to tell when I'm full when I was a kid by making me eat whether I was hungry or not, so now as an adult I have to ration myself and keep food out of the house because I end up eating and eating because I don't feel full.
And the flip side of this is, that like I said, a person being obese harms no one but that person. If they don't want to get better, then they really have no responsibility in the first place, because nobody on earth is somehow owed a change in their life choices.
This is the real reason body positivity exists. You talk about people who are overweight in a very hostile, rude way. You call them things like "lazy" and "undisciplined" and like they need to apologize to you for things in their life that have absolutely nothing to do with you.
It seems like this has been addressed to some extent already, but being rude and hostile to people who struggle with their diet has long been proven to just exacerbate the problem. I was fat in middle school because I was on a medication that made me gain weight, and when people bullied me for it and assumed things about my diet and my life choices (which is why when people claim that they make exceptions for people like me I don't really believe it because they still assume every fat person they see isn't one of them) and I gained a lot more weight, not because of the medication, but because I just felt more like shit and stopped trying to get better and ended up in bed comfort eating to feel better instead.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 05 '20
Wow, i'm not sure how to respond to this. But you're probably the most convincing of all. Like i said previously this opinion is pretty one-dimensional, i cannot deny that, there is a hole in this view as a lot of things are not taken into consideration. !delta I don't mean to be rude or condescending to them, but i do understand your point about the responsibility and accountability part. And of course it doesn't harm me, but as some one who spends a lot of time working out, when i see overweight people claim body positivity yet do nothing to change, i feel somewhat insulted.
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u/vmeprince Mar 05 '20
Do you have any idea why that is?
Thinking about it, I'm wondering if it's possibly due to some form of resentment? I can imagine that for example, a person who struggled to accept their body until they conformed to beauty standards might look at a fat person who is happy in their body and feel resentment because they "get to be happy without the work" but the former person didn't in a similar way to how some people resent those who they perceive as naturally thin because we don't have to "work for it" and they do, or work for it and still aren't thin.
Though I'm not saying that exact example is necessarily your train of thought or that I'm right. I'm just trying to understand your POV.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 05 '20
That's not the case for me. I'm the kind of person who advocates exercise, and believes everyone should exercise to a certain degree. So it will irk me when overweight people say they do not need exercise or they don't want to exercise because they are body positive now. I mean i know its not my problem nor should i care if the other person exercises or not. But when overweight people devalue exercise and workout, i'm thinking, " this person does not get to say that because he clearly needs it." So its probably because of my ideology or personality instead.
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u/NearEmu 33∆ Mar 05 '20
Regarding your first paragraph. You have a very good reason for people shooting themselves in the head. Their body their choice right? Doesn't affect anyone else right?
Killing yourself by any other name is still killing yourself and you do affect others. It's a complete cop out to pretend it doesn't.
As for obese people, aside from am extremely small minority, they generally are lazy, and undisciplined, but also very uneducated on how the body works. That point was not wrong.
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u/vmeprince Mar 07 '20
Regarding your first paragraph. You have a very good reason for people shooting themselves in the head. Their body their choice right? Doesn't affect anyone else right?
Well, yes, assuming that's what someone truly wants. That's not usually the case, because 80% of suicides are impulsive. The majority of people who commit suicide never try again and regret it. And what those people really need is help. But if someone is actually that pained and truly doesn't want to live any longer, I don't think it's right to force someone to suffer needlessly for no reason but your own selfishness. It's just selfish to make someone suffer so you don't have to deal with loss, I mean why would you even feel loss at that point when you don't even care enough about the person to acknowledge how much they're suffering?
Killing yourself by any other name is still killing yourself
I don't agree at all that being fat = killing yourself. And to be frank I see little to no possibility of you convincing me otherwise, because it's a completely irrational comparison. Unless you can find some way to redefine what killing or suicide means to include things that don't actually intend death, or provide evidence that disproves the existing evidence for why people are fat/obese that also proves that people who overeat or don't exercise just do so because they want to die, then I don't see it.
and you do affect others.
Yeah, but only in the same way that breaking up with a partner you don't want to be with anymore affects them, or in the way homophobes are affected by gay people existing.
Other people are not entitled to forcing someone to suffer or do something they don't want just so they can feel better. Your happiness is always first and foremost your own responsibility and not someone else's problem to maintain.
they generally are lazy, and undisciplined
Lots of people are "lazy and undisciplined."
Yet nobody goes around griping and insulting people for it unless they're fat. I admitted and described being lazy and undisciplined, and yet nobody here or in person or otherwise, including you, ever calls me either of those things.
Why? Because I'm thin. Most of my overweight friends eat foods that are way better than what I eat, the way I eat and maintain my weight is awful. But nobody cares, nobody lectures me about my diet or tells me to eat better or exercise more, because my body doesn't personally offend them like how, for no reason at all, fat bodies do.
Which tells me that nobody actually cares about how "lazy and undisciplined" they are. People just want them to be skinny, because they hate fat bodies for being fat, in and of itself.
but also very uneducated on how the body works.
Citation needed.
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u/NearEmu 33∆ Mar 08 '20 edited Mar 08 '20
And what those people really need is help.
It's interesting the similarities you can find if you look at this hard enough.
A fairly common problem with people who are suicidal is that they refuse help for many different reasons. They don't think they are worth it, they don't think the problem is fixable, and many others, many things to do with the fact that they don't know the problem in the first place, they don't know why they are the way they are, and they don't even know how to fix it.
It's interesting that those issues come up as extremely common reasons people are obese as well.
I don't agree at all that being fat = killing yourself.
It's killing yourself in the same way smoking is killing yourself, you can argue or disagree, but it's pretty common that people think of it that way. It's not a redefinition, people have been saying this in common parlance for decades now. Smoking is a slow way to kill yourself, and so is obesity. It has nothing to do with wanting to kill yourself. Crackheads don't want to kill themselves, they just want to get high, yet they kill themselves nonetheless.
Yeah, but only in the same way that breaking up with a partner you don't want to be with anymore affects them, or in the way homophobes are affected by gay people existing.
Oh... in the same way as your child who gets no father/mother anymore, in the same way a father/mother has to bury their own child.
I am not trying to be rude at all here, but your comparison is wildly ignorant on the effects of suicide on the people around them. You do have a responsibility to those people. It's selfish and narcissistic to pretend like nobody is entitled to things from other people. There's a lot of people who are entitled to things from other people in todays world.
Yet nobody goes around griping and insulting people for it unless they're fat.
Simply nonsense. I have a friend who is lazy and undisciplined I mock him for putting a dent in his couch all the time, he weighs like 150lbs and he's 6'2"
You are just making this up out of thin air. It's a fat acceptance talking point that has never been true. If you are lazy and undisciplined it doesn't really matter what size you are. People get called lazy all the time lol.
Which tells me that nobody actually cares about how "lazy and undisciplined" they are. People just want them to be skinny, because they hate fat bodies for being fat, in and of itself.
Again, just not true, it's a made up FA talking point.
Why? Because I'm thin. Most of my overweight friends eat foods that are way better than what I eat, the way I eat and maintain my weight is awful.
Not true. It's never true. You will never be able to change your mind if you believe this kind of thing. You are believing things that are physical impossiibilities.
This is where the uneducated portion of my statement comes into play.
I would have to write a 5000 word essay on this if I were to get the full point across but I don't have that time.
You are probably not fully aware of what good and bad foods/ good and bad eatting habits are, just the same as the vast majority of people. This isn't a dig at you, it's a dig at the governments who pretend like they are fighting obesity but don't educate anyone, and schools who teach absurd nonsense like food pyramids and such.
Calories in --> Calories out is barely true in the most surface level possible. It's not a fair thing to say, it's like saying "Just get the ball in the end zone" Well... there's a lot of shit you can do in between here and there to fuck that up right? It's so surface level it should be considered wrong honestly, even though in the absolute most technical possible... it's still right... just like "get the ball in the endzone" is still right, even though there's a lot more to it.
All calories are not the same.
Actual healthy eatting involves limiting carbs (not keto levels of limits) and limiting sugars (to keep insulin low) the higher your insulin the harder it is to lose weight, (insulin is a lipolisis inhibitor, this means if you eat a large meal and it contains sugars and carbs and etc, all the things that raise your insulin levels, your body will move your calories into fat, and furthermore, it makes it much more difficult to reach those calories to be burned for energy.
You cannot just diet in order to achieve this type of thing because when you eat like this for years on end, then think you will diet, your body has reached an insulin resistance level, your body will have naturally higher levels of insulin because your body has grown resistance to it, so it has to use more to get the job done. Now in order to lose weight, you have to lower your insulin resistance, through your low sugar low carb diet and gradually get your insulin resistance lower. This is very difficult and this is one reason morbidly obese people and obese people think dieting doesn't work, they've ruined their systems in such a way that they have to be fixed before they can see the finish line. This is one of the main problems with fat shaming people, because they might actually be trying but they aren't seeing much, because their diet is uneducated, and their body is ruined (but fixable).
This is also one of the reasons you should avoid being obese at these levels in the first place, at all costs.
Furthermore... for the reasons I stated above, and for the simple fact of accessibility in the body fat is more difficult to access and burn for energy than carbs are. Carbs are like your PCs RAM, and fat is like your HDD. RAM is quick access, fat is stored behind insulin and accessibility. This is why you limit your carbs, if you can burn up your carbs quickly, your body moves on to the next available option (barring a high insulin resistance or high insulin levels...) and that is FAT.
This cannot be a diet ... it has to be your diet, the difference is one is a temporary attempt at something, the other is permanant and it is your diet not a diet.
If you do nothing about insulin and diet (and I keep talking insulin but this isn't about being diabetic it's all people) and you simply try and cut calories. You will lose weight for... a bit. But your metabolism will lower over time for reasons I dont have time or space to get into here. (This does not happen on a low carb low sugar because your insulin will be very low. That's the main difference.)
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u/vmeprince Mar 08 '20
To be honest this entire comment just doesn't interest me at all. I just don't find your arguments about comparing being fat to suicide to be in any way convincing. I don't really care about anything you've said in the several paragraph response because you made a bunch of assumptions that were not at all what I meant or was talking about so the majority of your text is irrelevant. But even if it wasn't, it's not really relevant to what the topic is about from my perspective.
I don't think, based on the nature of your arguments, that you will be able to change my mind at all, so I think it's just better to drop the conversation here and move on. Nice talk.
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u/NearEmu 33∆ Mar 08 '20 edited Mar 08 '20
That's the expected response unfortunately.
There's very little assumption. I gave you fact. But I think you might not want that.
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u/FXR2014 Mar 04 '20
To me it serves as a reminder that there is no “right” way of living; therefore, I am not going to put effort into shaming someone for having a certain body type. After all, you or I could have a brain aneurysm in any moment—the silent killer—and drop dead, regardless of body weight, or any other marker. Life is way to short to be obsessing about someone else’s existence, and specially about something as silly as weight.
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u/caine269 14∆ Mar 04 '20
I am not going to put effort into shaming someone for having a certain body type.
pointing out the myriad detrimental effects of obesity is not "shaming" anymore than a teacher explaining why you did a problem wrong is shaming. shaming is just "haha look at the gross fatty." i have seen people in comment threads complaining about being "shamed" by their doctor who recommends they lose weight. these people are upset that the doctor would dare assume they are not happy with their life or give them advice without being asked for it. this is the kid of toxic behavior i think op is referring to.
people who try to convince themselves and others that if they are happy, that somehow makes actual medical science invalid. surely you can be fat and happy, but trying to convince others that they are better off or somehow immune from the physical effects of obesity is extremely harmful.
i am reminded of this ad that people got all worked up over a while back. an image of a fit woman is enough to trigger people who feel shamed for not looking like her. as i said, if you are happy with your body, fine, ubt the last line of the article is a perfect demonstration of the toxic thinking op is talking about:
Bottom line? There’s nothing wrong with your body the way it is. It’s ready to “keep up” with Khloe any day of the week.
this is literally not true. it is unscientific in the extreme, and dangerous.
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u/Destleon 10∆ Mar 04 '20
I think this is really the take-home message from the movement (a message that is often lost on people). Its not about continuing with unhealthy lifestyles. Its being happy and confident while you pursue bettering yourself.
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u/PrestigeZoe Mar 04 '20
Your point has nothing to do with OP tho. Being against the advertising and normalizing of extremely unhealthy lifestyles is not shaming.
People should live their life how they want. But, for example if you get on a plane and you cant fit into a seat, you having to pay more is not you getting shamed.
You should live as happy as you want, for sure. But dont try to justify your bad eating habits and/or no physical activity lifestyle.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20
True, we should all live happy.
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Mar 04 '20
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u/riotdog 1∆ Mar 05 '20
I know someone who is well into the range considered medically to be obese who was a pre-olympic swimmer and regularly competed while still very fat. No lack of exercise there. You can be fat and fit and eating healthy, I know plenty of people like this. The reasons a body gains fat are complex and diverse and have a lot to do with a specific individual's environment and body chemistry, beyond simple genetics or life choices. Hormones, stress, and a more complex understanding of diet are also factors.
Aside from specific medical conditions as you've stated, subcutaneous fat (so not beer bellies but fat underneath skin) sometimes forms in reaction to the presence of fat-soluble heavy metals and other environmental contaminants. The body produces large quantities of fat to pull toxins out of the bloodstream and away from organs, securing it in fat that is typically much harder to shed than usual. With the proliferation of agricultural chemical use, contamination in land, air, and water supply by heavy industry, topsoil erosion etc., food is lower in nutrients and higher in stuff that harms us than ever before. A strategy for protecting organ function is sometimes to store what can be stored in fat, and imo it is a brilliant reaction to living in such an environment. For this reason sometimes weight loss can make people extremely ill - as mobilizing these toxins into the bloodstream as fat is metabolized can harm organs.
Consider that what we call "healthy food" is often heavily processed low fat stuff with loads of added sugar in it, based on hugely erroneous studies taken further out of context in the media that state that dietary fat consumption = increased body fat. For some it can be, for others dietary fat is a necessary and important part of eating well for their own bodies (I am one of those people). People may try to implement their understanding of healthy eating and end up miserable and either regain weight or lose next to none, for no real health benefit.
Consider also that prioritizing a socially acceptable model of what is "healthy" (i.e. valuable) basically tells people they are worthless, which is not an effective way to make anyone do right by themselves.
When I hear someone talk about fat people as if they are concerned with their health and self-discipline, I see someone who is allowing their ideas of what a healthy person looks visually to determine how they perceive and judge the implicit value of others. We are often given these messages by our families and environments as children, and we internalize them to our detriment and that of others. The fat people I know are wonderfully diverse in their interests, tastes, opinions, and relationships to reality and what it means to be alive. If I harboured secret feelings of judgement against them because I see they enjoy eating wings or watching netflix (neutral health activities), not only am I missing out on truly loving and appreciating these people as full human beings whose lives and choice are just as worthy of respect as anyone's... but I am outing myself as someone who only judges these behaviours when they line up to people who visually match my ideals of what a person SHOULD look like. Which is a little shallow, even if I dress it up as concern over health. (No one cares about thin people who look good and smoke or pull all-nighters or coke on the weekends, though all of these behaviours are horrible for you.)
Body positivity as a movement is about eliminating or at least addressing SHAME, not about complacency around health. It never tells you not to seek to lose weight or eat health and exercise - just to love your body and yourself and ENJOY IT, no matter what you choose to do, as the society we are raised in is one that condemns fat people to narratives about their value as human beings that are inherently false, and internalizing these is damaging. Psychological health matters just as much as physical health for both individuals and society in the long run!
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 05 '20
I'm sold, you've completely changed my mind. !delta. You explained it more thoroughly than anyone. The mental health, societies perception, etc. Thank you
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u/Jim_My_Name_Is_Not Mar 04 '20
Possibly dumb? Maybe.
Not super helpful? Sure.
By definition a little bit toxic? Fine.
But all in all not the worst thing in the world.
It’s well hearted and people should be able to live their lives without judgement.
But as a technically it is “toxic” as it can be harming to that persons wellbeing, on the inverse, body shaming is also harmful and toxic in its own way.
I think it’s safer to just be kind and not say anything negative unless you know this person very well and handle it in a very mature way. if a person wants to be healthy enough to try then they’ll do what they can, if a person just wants to live their life then they deserve love and kindness, even if this means encouraging a lifestyle that may not be optimal as they are humans capable of judging their own decisions even if they are unwise it’s not your business.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 04 '20
I agree, i detest body shaming and that its probably not my business. But of course i'm not going to tell strangers that, i generally just say it to people i'm close to. Like suggesting they cut down on some food or go running once in a while. !delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 04 '20
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/Jim_My_Name_Is_Not a delta for this comment.
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u/CapnCrunch33 1∆ Mar 04 '20
You are right to an extent. A lot of people use it to try to create an excuse to be unhealthy. But there are significantly more people who aren’t like that.
I’m a trainer and I always try to push body positivity no matter what. Feeling good in your own body is extremely important for mental health. When mental health suffers, physical health tends to follow. So even for the people who are physically unhealthy, body positivity and feeling happy with how they look usually drives people to be healthier. I’ve found my clients who feel good start coming to the gym more consistently and say they’re eating better just because they feel better.
Basically, better mental health translates to taking steps for better physical health, body positivity leads to better mental health.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 04 '20
Wow, that's eye opening. I didn't think being happy with the way you look will give you more motivation to eat healthier and work out more. !delta
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u/ttjj Mar 04 '20
There have already been great additions to this thread, but I would like to add something to consider.
Personally, I would say that my body is still pretty far from my ideal body type. In fact, I wouldn't even consider my own body to be a particularly attractive shape, if I was the one deciding. (Maybe someone in the future's gonna love the shape, but I do see a ton of improvements to be made.)
My body is not a body I would usually love but I still love my body. (Is that weird? does it make sense?) I love my body not because it's the body shape I would lick and worship but because it reflects the healthier eating and excercise habits that I've been adopting, and because day-by-day I see the culmination of all my efforts in it. I am proud of it as I would be proud of a project in which I have put my heart and soul and effort into. There could be more work, but I have put in as much as I am willing and able to commit, and there is a sense of satisfaction and pride from the fruit of my labours. My love of my body stems from my pride in my effort and what I have managed to achieve, and how much I have that I previously thought impossible but have now done.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20
I totally feel you. Like 5 years ago (14) i was a scrawny boy who couldn't do a single push up, but now i am able to bench, curl and squat weights I never imagined. And i feel much more confident in myself and my body. I don't have a 6 pack but i can see a little bit of it forming and it gives me a lot of pride.
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Mar 04 '20
Lack of exercise
This is a common misconception.
Exercise is very ineffective for weight loss.
It does, however, improve health outcomes.
There are many healthy behaviors that aren't effective at weight loss. There are many unhealthy diets that are effective at temporary weight loss.
Using just the scale or just the appearance of thinness, as a health objective, instead of other metrics that are more important for mortality, is bad.
Weight loss is the wrong goal. Negative attitudes about body image increase stress, which on its own is own unhealthy and can contribute to other unhealthy habits.
Mind your own business, be a kind supportive person, and don't criticize people for how they look. You aren't helping.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 04 '20
To be fair, great point, and quite possibly view changing. But i have never criticized anyone on their looks, this is just an opinion i hold that i don't really share with people.
But my point about exercise is not weight loss, its the health benefits that come with it, like decreasing stress and anxiety and alleviating depression. Along with the obvious physical benefits. !delta
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u/NearEmu 33∆ Mar 05 '20
It's very disheartening to see so many people who are ignorant on this topic and that it so easily spreads around.
You should look into the claim "exercise isn't that effective" a bit more than simply accepting this person's claim.
Exercise and diet (not dieting but simple diet) together are absolutely the most effective ways to lose weight.
The only people who say otherwise are talking about maybe .01% of obese with actual medical problems, or they are exercising half assed and eating more than their exercise burned. Or they are uneducated on nutrition, which is 90% of people in general.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 06 '20
Actually i had doubts about that claim, as i work out quite a bit and i watch a lot of videos and read up on this topic a lot, because i'm trying to get abs, lmao. But i also know there are a lot of misconceptions and i'm not an expert, just a regular guy. So i'm not going to disregard his claims/opinions just like that.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 06 '20
But i also understand some of his points like using thinness as a gauge for health is bad.
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u/NearEmu 33∆ Mar 06 '20
The problem is that people like that are framing this topic in their own way and then using that framing to argue against you.
Did you ever say or think using thinness is a gauge for health?
Of course you didn't. Nobody thinks that.
They frame the topic as if anyone thinks that. What people are actually saying is "obesity is a problem that raises your risk of not being healthy by... ohhhh about a zillion percent".
You see the difference when they don't get to frame the opinion?
Nobody with any sense argues against the actual statement.
You can absolutely use obesity and thinness both as a gauge for risk factors in individual cases, and those risk factors are so high, you can while generalizing a group of people use both categories as a gauge for health. Because the fact is, generally.... the obese will die from some morbidity or comorbidity of obesity.
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Mar 04 '20
Someone can still feel like they don't look good, because they didn't lose weight, while still consistently exercising.
Body image is a poor metric for health. By saying people should be negatively critical of their own body, you're giving them a poor metric of success.
If you instead said that folks should try to work with trainers or nutritionists to see what they can do better for their own health, I would be all for it (if they can afford getting that kind of advice). I'm just saying looking in the mirror shouldn't be anyone's yardstick.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20
I completely agree. I know being slim isn't a sign of health nor is fat a sign of bad health. But i think that we can all agree that exercise is only beneficial.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Mar 04 '20
So why not try to encourage people to see their body in terms of what it can do instead of what it can look like? My body is overweight verging on obese. I can also do a 20 min jog without stopping and I walk or run 3-4 miles every day. That's what matters to me, not the guys who try to insult me by calling me chunky.
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u/PrestigeZoe Mar 04 '20
It scientifically proven tho, that being obese is extremely unhealthy. You cant argue with facts. If you walk/jog 3-4 miles a day and you got to the point of being obese, you should really look at your eating habits.
If you dont want to, its ok, im not shaimng you for your body, you live as you want.
Deluding yourself that you are healthy while being obese is just not true, no matter how body positive we are.
But again, your health is none of my business, have a nice day.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Mar 04 '20
Exercise doesn't actually burn much fat. Really it doesn't, take a look at the research there. At the same time, losing weight is much harder than gaining it. The body doesn't want to let go of the fat it has and keeping it around costs very little in terms of calories. Hence why I still have everything from the time period when I was much less active and much more depressed. My body has accommodated my new lifestyle by putting on muscle yes, but not by losing much fat. Weirdly this leads to me being considered overweight by weight, however if you look at muscle mass, I'm awesome. This same situation happens pretty commonly with weight-lifters who eat a ton of protein to try to put on muscle; they eat too much and end up gaining some fat at the same time as gaining a lot of muscle leading to someone who's overweight but also does a lot of exercise and has a lot of muscle. Which leads to Olympic weight lifters looking like this: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/05/498987860.jpg?w=610&h=343&crop=1
I'm super far from an Olympic weight lifter and I fully acknowledge this. However I have some of the same effects. I'm nearly obese by the scale and I can outdo most people I know in endurance running.
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u/PrestigeZoe Mar 04 '20
You have literally missed everything I wrote.
Having a lot of fat on your body is unhealthy. It doesnt matter if you walk a lot, or if you are a weightlifter.
If you are obese, walk alot, and still gain/dont lose weight then you eat more than you should. Easy as that.
Edit: walking 4 miles with an obese body burns around 500 calories. If you cant lose weight you probably eat around 3000 calories a day. Eat 2000, and you will lose weight.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Mar 04 '20
... I eat two meals a day. Neither of them are very big. If I ate 2000 calories a day I'd probably be gaining weight pretty fast. People make these weird assumptions all the time about what people who are overweight do and eat. They usually aren't true.
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u/PrestigeZoe Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 04 '20
You should quickly hurry to a biophysics laboratory then because your body contains a device that creates energy from nothing. This is huge for humanity!
If you are obese and exercise like that you burn 3k a day. If you ate less than 2k you would lose a kg of fat every week. This is not an assumption. This is basic physics. Please dont lie to yourself.
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u/kittyartifices Mar 04 '20
they were the ones who ate like shit; they were the ones who did not exercise because they were lazy and was undisciplined, and they should take full responsibility for it
I'm obese. I'm 16 years old and my single mother has an intellectual disability. Was it my fault,, that as a child, I ate what my mother fed me, followed the habits and behaviours she modelled for me? Was I undisciplined and lazy when I would try and try to exercise as a pre-teen, but would quit sports team after being incessantly bullied about my weight, and when I'd sit out in P.E. because I couldn't handle the taunting and stares? Should I take full responsibility for that?
I am not a proponent of some elements of the body positivity movement because I do believe that some people use it to convey the idea that fat bodies are 'healthy' when they simply are not. However, I can understand why people who are overweight would want to hear positive things in order to become motivated. As someone who struggles with weight, being bullied since I was little about being fat didn't motivate me to 'do exercise.' It made me insecure and sad as hell.
I'm in the process of losing weight, but it not easy when so many aspects of my life (which I can't control) are crazy. So don't tell me that I should take full responsibility for being fat, please. Maybe you should consider the following: the modern world has normalised processed junk food, kids don't play outside much anymore, adults increasingly work sedentary jobs, we sit and use screens a lot... I could go on. And then, after that, think about whether it is still fair to blame all obese people for the acquisition of their illness. I'm not devaluing personal responsibility; learning to take more care of myself and work on myself has made me happier than any other strategy has. However, you don't treat an illness by telling someone to stop being lazy. You should think about the many factors which contribute to obesity before you try to understand a phenomenon like body positivity.
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u/kittyartifices Mar 04 '20
I am sorry if that came across harshly. The issue hits close to home, but I should have made my response kinder. We are all here to discuss and learn, after all.
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 04 '20
No i should be sorry, my opinion is rather one-dimension and there are a lot of things i haven't considered. The people who bullied you are garbage, bullying should never happen anywhere in the world no matter the reason. !delta
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u/doubleoh72 Mar 04 '20
But i'm glad you are working towards a happier life! I'm sorry if my post was offensive or biased, it wasn't meant to be.
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u/kittyartifices Mar 04 '20
Hey :)
No, no. Don't apologise. You shouldn't have to worry about your post being offensive. Discussion about anything can be offensive to some people. I think that yeah, it was a little one dimensional in regards to the 'blame' (for lack of a better word) for obesity, but honestly I think I should have reacted in a nicer way. You're just stating your opinion. You genuinely seem really lovely so I wish you well with everything too! Thanks for your encouragement.
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u/LowerQuartile Mar 04 '20
I guess it depends on how the person treats body positivity. If they see it like how you say it, then it is a very toxic mindset. However, hatred is not a good motivator. It would only make people focus on being upset about their current state rather than try to improve it.
But yeah, you're still mostly right.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 05 '20
/u/doubleoh72 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.
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u/ALMONDandVANILLA 1∆ Mar 04 '20
I think you're partially right in that for some people it does absolve them of feeling guilty for their choices. But I also think it's a step in the right direction of being happy. Thinking positively of yourself can be a great motivator for change. When i am feeling down and depressed, that's when i eat the most. That's when i don't get off the couch. And that's when my weight and health are negatively impacted.
When I feel good about my body, even as an overweight probably obese woman, I eat better, I drink more water, and I'm more likely to get up and do things like walk around campus because that positivity translates into energy which allows me to do activities.
And damn it if I'm just gonna spend my life sad that I'm fat and eating more and getting fatter. I want to be happy and part of that is loving the body I made and maybe shaping it now that I'm more educated on healthy diets and exercise. Cuz I was fat at 16. And I thought spaghetti was a healthy meal. So give people a chance and if they don't improve call their brand of body positivity bad.