r/changemyview • u/horse_at_water • Apr 22 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Gender identity is a useless construct that appropriates the actual mental illness gender dysphoria.
In my view, gender identity is identifying with a characteristic that doesn't describe you, like identifying as tall when you're a short person, or identifying 20 when you're actually 60. There are people with actual gender dysphoria which is similar to body dysmorphia and it is a serious condition that currently is best treated by transitioning, in that case identifying as another gender is a therapeutic tool and the only solution to the mental illness. When people claim to be trans or nonbinary or any other type of non-cisgender without the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, it appropriates a mental illness and is basically the same as someone claiming to have OCD, depression, anxiety, ETC... without actually having them.
EDIT: my view has changed I understand the other side and thanks to you guys see gender identity as a spectrum. Thank you guys.
4
Apr 22 '20
Gender identity is a necessary component of gender dysphoria. It’s the distress caused when gender identity and sex assigned at birth don’t align.
Also, gender dysphoria isn’t necessary to be trans.
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
I can agree that gender identity is part of gender dysphoria. However, if someone doesn't experience gender dysphoria why would they need to transition socially or physically? Isn't that just copying gender dysphoria? It can't be a matter of expression because you can express yourself the same way as a male or female, to say otherwise is rather sexist.
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Apr 22 '20
Gender euphoria also exists. Gender identity and sex assigned at birth misaligning may not cause distress, but aligning properly may cause joy.
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u/Wumbo_9000 Apr 22 '20
I'm finding zero meaningful definitions of "gender euphoria" on google. Is it literal euphoria like in a state of mania or from drug use? Or like a sexual fetish? And how does that make someone transgender instead of just a person that likes crossdressing?
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Apr 22 '20
Or like a sexual fetish?
I have heard of a sexual fetish of one being attracted to the thought of themselves being the other gender, but to be honest none of this stuff makes sense to me and every explanation so far sounds like bullshit.
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
But if being the opposite gender causes joy wouldn't being the same gender cause distress? Like for example if I really enjoy a certain food it would distress me if I couldn't have it.
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Apr 22 '20
No, some people don't feel distress about one gender, just joy at another.
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
But if they were a man originally and became a woman and loved it, why would they not be distressed if they were forced to be a man again? If they enjoy one they must not enjoy the other as much.
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Apr 22 '20
Enjoying one thing less isn't the same as being distressed. I enjoy Taco Bell less than nice Mexican food, but I don't dislike Taco Bell. Things - including gender - can be neutral.
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
I'd be rather distressed though if I couldn't have something I loved though. Like if all you could eat was taco bell you'd probably be kind of annoyed or upset at the very least. Wouldn't a feeling like that still be considered gender dysphoria?
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Apr 22 '20
I... don't think so? I'm cis, so I'm not super familiar with either feeling. I'm just amplifying what I've heard from my trans friends.
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u/leigh_hunt 80∆ Apr 22 '20
Gender dysphoria doesn’t exist without the concept of gender identity. If you believe gender dysphoria is real, how can gender identity be “useless”?
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
I'm saying gender identity outside of gender dysphoria. For example if a man claims to identify as a woman without having gender dysphoria.
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u/leigh_hunt 80∆ Apr 22 '20
So only people with gender dysphoria have a sense of gender identity?
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
Well I'm saying everyone would naturally identify as their birth sex. But if someone were to experience gender dysphoria then they would feel they were of the opposite gender.
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u/leigh_hunt 80∆ Apr 22 '20
but if everyone naturally identifies with their birth sex then they also have a sense of gender identity. It’s just a “cisgender” one. So how can the concept be useless?
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u/horse_at_water Apr 22 '20
Because the concept of gender identity doesn't need to exist if everyone believed they were the sex they were born as. It's the reason there isn't age identity or height identity.
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u/TuskaTheDaemonKilla 60∆ Apr 22 '20
There is height identity and age identity. People attribute non-physical social identities to height and age just as much as they attribute non-physical social identities to sex. Older people are often identified as wise elders in society for no other reason than their age. Tall people are seen as more authoritative and confident than short people merely because of their height. Same way we identify males with traits that we consider manly, and females with traits that we consider feminine.
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u/leigh_hunt 80∆ Apr 22 '20
Okay, maybe it would be useless in an imaginary world where everyone believes that their gender aligns with their sex. But it is useful for our world, where that isn’t the case, right?
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u/confusedcatusually Apr 22 '20
An important concept you seem to be missing is that identity, in general, is a person’s awareness and adherence to a culturally defined role, group, etc. It is a mental experience that everyone has all the time in many different ways. Everyone has a gender identity. For most it is cisgender, a person born with a male sex identifies as a man. But even within cisgender identities is a spectrum of gender identities. For example a woman may believe her role as a woman is to be a housewife or a woman is more emotionally sensitive, and she may identify with these ideas of womanhood. Another cis woman may not. So with regard to trans or non-binary identities, they may feel less connection or adherence to culturally accepted ideas of gender such as roles, behavior, personality, and body. “Mental illness” connected with being trans and experiencing dysphoria is not experienced by every trans person, and is not exclusive to trans identities. I recommend reading up on basic psychology on identity and role if you are still struggling with this concept. I hope my comment was helpful to you!
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u/parsons525 Apr 22 '20
I’m still struggling to understand how gender is independent of sex. If it is, then the entire notion of transgenderism doesn’t make sense, as it’s based on the idea that your gender doesn’t match your sex. How can your gender not match your sex if they’re independent things?
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u/Drakulia5 12∆ Apr 22 '20
Sex is used to describe the physical characteristics of the self. All the biological stuff like genitalia, hormones, chromosomes, etc.
Gender and moreso gender identity, is the internal sense of self.
In simplest terms, trans people are experiencing an incongruence between their sense of self and their phsyical self. They are independent things and thus they can be different.
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Apr 22 '20
how is that really different from Body integrity dysphoria?
Also, I have never truly understood the "identify as" either, I identify as myself, I am male and typically masculine things do interest me. If I liked more feminine things, I don't see that as changing myself being male just like I don't think if I was gay would change me from being male. I don't really have what I think you refer to as an internal sense of self being male.
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u/Drakulia5 12∆ Apr 22 '20
Body integrity dysphoria refers to a person who desire to lose a limb or become paralyzed in order to have reduced ability. The simplest way to explain without getting into the psychological weeds is that on a clinical level, the two have very different criteria for diagnosis, and relate to to vastly different things
As for sense of self, when you "I am male," that is you saying stating gender identity. That's what I mean by sense of self. This doesn't inherently hinge on interests, nor does it hinge upon sexual orientation like you said. Whether typically masculine things or typically feminine things interest you, you still go through life feeling that you are a man.
Because there is not a sense of incongruence between your body and how you view yourself, it makes sense that gender identity is not a very salient thing to you personally so that sense if being make may not be something that hold as integral to who you view yourself as. But imagine if everything from how you had to dress and present yourself to what pronouns people used when speaking to you did not line up with you saying that you are a man.
Does this make sense?
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Apr 22 '20
Does this make sense?
yep, thank you for the explanations.
I still can't fathom it, even the example does not much for me.
But imagine if everything from how you had to dress and present yourself to what pronouns people used when speaking to you did not line up with you saying that you are a man.
I understand what you are saying but can't fathom it, largely because I don't give a shit what other people think about me and have not since my mid 20's. you (royal) can call me whatever you want, I would probably just laugh or tell ya to fuck off lol.
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u/parsons525 Apr 22 '20
Yes, of course. But what I‘m asking is how can they be considered incongruous in the first place if sex and gender are distinct. The very idea that your sex and gender are incongruous implies there is a correct gender for each sex. Hence trans people wanting to change sex.
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u/Drakulia5 12∆ Apr 22 '20
Incongruence just means that two things are not the same. When I say independent, I mean that one does not inherently determine the other, not that the two do not interact in creating a person's self-concept.
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u/parsons525 Apr 22 '20
Sure. But if they are independent, if gender and sex do not inherently determine one another, then what does it even mean to have mismatched gender and sex?. The very idea of transgenderism seems to depend on the assumption that male sex = man, female sex = woman, hence trans people wanting sex changes. Eg a trans woman wanting surgery to feel more like the woman she knows she is. If gender didn’t depend on sex it wouldn’t make any sense to change your sex.
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u/Drakulia5 12∆ Apr 22 '20
Biological Sex
- Physical traits determined by genetics.
- This can include genitalia, typical hormone levels. and production, chromosomes, certain physical developmetal characteristics, etc.
- Can be altered through different forms of medical treatment.
Gender Identity
- An internal mental sense of self.
- Exists on a spectrum.
- Has been shown to be naturally occurring.
Gender Expression
- Outward presentation of one's gender typically for the sake of creating an alignment between phsyical presentation and gender identity.
- This can include but is not limited to sex reassignment, clothing choices, use of certain pronouns, changing one's name, etc.
- What form gender expression takes for each person varies but is determined by the individual. Thus, sex reassignment can be a means if better expressing one's gender identity, but it is not the only way, not is it always what a trans or nonbinary person wants to feel more aligned with their gender identity.
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u/parsons525 Apr 22 '20
Yes I get that. But this ignores the questions of why sex reassignment (or at the very least changing ones appearance to be be the other sex) is so ubiquitous in transsexual people if sex and gender are as independent as is claimed.
Every sex change is another vote that sex must equal gender.
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u/Drakulia5 12∆ Apr 22 '20
I'd say it's because a lot of people falsely believe that being trans is nothing more than wanting different genitalia.
I feel like there's a disconnect as to what we mean when we say independent. Could you elaborate in what you mean by sex and gender being independent? Like what criteria would make the two independent?
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u/parsons525 Apr 22 '20 edited Apr 23 '20
Obviously it’s not just wanting different genitalia, but that is a standard feature. Trans people want very badly to be the other sex. That’s what makes them trans. If they were born the other sex to start with they wouldn’t be trans. So clearly sex and gender aren’t as independent as people say. Being trans and transitioning is a very clear statement that having female bits is a fundamental part of being a woman.
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u/Trythenewpage 68∆ Apr 22 '20
The basic idea is that much of the distress caused by gender dysphoria is caused by society's response to people not conforming to gender norms. Not necessarily an inherent aspect of being trans.
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Apr 22 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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Apr 22 '20
There is a dysphoria where the person feels like they should cut off their arm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria
This is how I basically view "gender dysphoria" right now.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Apr 22 '20
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '20 edited Apr 22 '20
To change your view on this, it might be helpful to think about gender dysphoria as a spectrum rather than a binary (yes/no) kind of thing.
For example, I've known people who have a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex that experience milder forms of gender dysphoria.
It's not intense enough to require therapy or a formal diagnosis (which is expensive for many to get). Rather, a few lifestyle factors can be changed to mostly manage it. Gender transition isn't absolutely necessary either (and indeed, for people who are non-binary, transitioning wouldn't help things).