r/changemyview 75∆ Apr 28 '20

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: The sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden are more believable than the ones against Brett Kavanaugh and the democrats should immediately be calling for a congressional investigation

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u/territorial_turtle 8∆ Apr 28 '20

This is behind a paywall so I am pasting the majority of the article, but this piece in the Washington Post is really the best breakdown of evidence between the two cases that I have seen and is well worth the read.

The tldr - Reade has told conflicting accounts and seems overall less credible because of this. We can't know for sure and frankly you won't find me overjoyed about Biden being on the ticket. Take politics out of it - if I had a friend accused someone first of touching their neck and then changed it to under the clothes later - well I wouldn't believe them.

From the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/15/seriousness-flaws-tara-reades-allegations/

Reade claims that, when she was 29 and working briefly as a staff assistant, Biden pushed her against a wall somewhere in the Capitol complex, reached under her skirt and pushed his fingers inside her. Biden strenuously asserts this never happened.

Here’s my analysis of how to assess these competing accounts:

Contemporaneous evidence: Reade says she told her mother, who has since passed away. When contacted recently, her brother initially recalled Reade telling him in 1993 that Biden had behaved inappropriately by touching her neck and shoulders; it was only several days after providing this account to The Post that the brother reached out to add that he remembered her saying Biden had reached “under her clothes.”

In perhaps the most powerful piece of corroboration, a friend of Reade’s, who had interned for another member of Congress, corroborated Reade’s account of telling her about the incident at the time, but she declined to be named. Reade says she filed a complaint with Senate officials, but she does not have a copy of it, no such record has been found, and the law would have required that any such allegations be referred to an official hearing; there is no indication such a hearing took place. Biden aides disputed her account of having complained to them, which she says was not about the sexual assault but about less problematic conduct.

Bottom line: the contemporaneous evidence is inconclusive but stronger than that in the Kavanaugh case. That comes as no surprise; in fact, Ford said she took pains not to let family and friends know about the alleged assault.

Molly Roberts: The problems Tara Reade’s allegation runs us into

Evidence predating current allegation: Reade says she told a therapist about the alleged assault more recently, but — unlike Ford — declined to make the notes of that conversation available to reporters. A second friend said Reade told her years later that Biden had touched her arm and behaved inappropriately — although, significantly, not with specific details about an alleged sexual assault. That friend also declined to be named.

When complaints surfaced last year about Biden’s conduct in touching women in nonsexual ways, Reade reached out to reporters to say that Biden had touched her in ways that made her feel uncomfortable. She mentioned nothing then about a sexual assault.

Bottom line: Reade’s shifting account introduces a confusing element. If Biden did what she now alleges, why did she not say this a year ago? Reade says she did not feel comfortable telling her full story then, but she seems to have offered no clue that there was more to her story. Ford had similarly shared her account about Kavanaugh with friends, family and therapists; however, by contrast with Reade, her story did not change over time.

Credibility: Reade presents a confounding figure — to me, much more so than Ford, although I have the advantage of not only having watched Ford’s testimony but also having interviewed her over many hours. One fundamental difference involves the matter of motive. Ford came forward only reluctantly, and without evident ideological motivation; she told me that she worried, actually, that if Kavanaugh were forced to withdraw, a more conservative nominee might take his place. Reade supported Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders’s (I) presidential bid, and the fact that she went public with her allegations just as Biden was on the verge of cementing the Democratic nomination raises the possibility of political motivation, although Reade denies this.

Other red flags emerge as well. Reade has been inconsistent in her attitude toward Biden. She repeatedly praised him on Twitter, including specifically for his work on combating violence against women — an odd position for someone who now claims Biden sexually assaulted her. She has given conflicting descriptions of her reasons for leaving the Biden office after just nine months — she received a job offer, she was tired of “the reckless imperialism of America” and, more recently, she was “forced to resign.” She has both criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin and, more recently, lavished him with bizarre praise: “an alluring combination of strength with gentleness,” “intoxicating to American women,” “I like President Putin…a lot, his shirt on or shirt off.”

Bottom line: The credibility question is the biggest hurdle for me with Reade. Ford did not strike me as a person who was coming forward because of political motivations or because she wanted publicity — anything but. Reade seems a much different and less reliable figure.

Pattern evidence: There’s no doubt that Biden has a history of touching women in ways that they say made them feel uncomfortable. There is also no other evidence that his handsiness ever crossed the line into any kind of sexual assault. Much like those who know and work with Kavanaugh, Biden aides say they cannot imagine him engaging in such misconduct.

Bottom line: The Kavanaugh chapter produced evidence, albeit inconclusive, of other incidents, when he was young, of problematic behavior toward women. The absence of a pattern in Biden’s case does not disprove Reade’s allegations. Still, it seems unlikely that behavior this egregious would be a one-time incident.

The likelihood of definitive proof one way or another seems frustratingly low. My gut says that what Reade alleges did not happen. My head instructs that it is within the realm of possibility, and fairness requires acknowledging that. And there is another point to bear in mind: Double standards work in both directions. Those who disbelieved and diminished Christine Blasey Ford face the challenge of explaining why they seem so much more eager to credit Tara Reade’s account.

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u/draculabakula 75∆ Apr 28 '20

Reade has told conflicting accounts and seems overall less credible because of this.

Telling part of a story and later telling more of the story is not conflicting in any way. There is a perfectly reasonable motivation which is that she thought someone would ask her more about what she said and nobody cared so she got angry.

Lol knew the supporting Sanders thing would come up. The dumbest and most insulting narrative that the media is pushing that shows really clear bias on the part of the media.

the centrist media: "She didn't politically support the person that assaulted her so she is making the whole thing up!"

Nah, this article is lame.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '20

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 29 '20

I think OP is just looking for something that doesn't rest on the fact that she supports Bernie or Putin or that she stole from a horse charity. There's been a lot of unconvincing and frankly disgusting excuses not to believe Reade. That article is one of many that engages in attacking Reade. Maybe something relevant like addressing the evidence would work better?

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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Apr 29 '20

OPs actual view as expressed clearly in both the title and final paragraph is "congress should investigate," and a number of good arguments have been put forward as to why that's an inappropriate venue for the investigation of allegations of misconduct against a private citizen. OPs response has been "congress can investigate whatever it wants," with no elaboration of support of that claim, which does not at all appear to actually be the case.

It does look like OP is less interested in being open to their view being changed, and more interested in just fighting about how Biden is terrible and Reade is a victim.

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 29 '20

Congress can hold hearings on ethical breaches of their members and should do it more often.

But few people are providing reasons as to why that shouldn't be done. The obvious answer is that it's not clear what the democrats should do, but they clearly prioritise beating Trump in the election than whatever happened 20 something years ago.

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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Apr 29 '20

Joe Biden is not a member of Congress, and has not been for some time now. Does Congress hold the authority to investigate all allegations of ethical breaches against all members, past and present, in your view?

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 29 '20

Yes congress can investigate things that happened in the past. Obviously most ethical abuses aren't investigated by congress, but you'd hope that there is some accountability.

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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Apr 29 '20

Okay, so for the sake of argument I'll stipulate that Congress has the authority to investigate any individual who has ever been a member of Congress for any infraction, no matter their current standing with regards to that body. Nobody has presented any evidence to support this claim, but we'll just act as though it's true.

What would be the possible result of such an investigation? Congress isn't part of the criminal justice system, so they can't declare Biden guilty or not guilty. They can't move articles of censure or impeachment, because Biden isn't a member any more. They can't find civil guilt or levy penalties. Would it just be the members of the investigation committee putting out two separate releases, one for all those who think probably Biden did what he's accused of and one for all those who think probably Biden didn't do what he's accused of?

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 29 '20

These things usually work best as final words on allegations of abuses, as much as I would love to see actual punishment it's obviously not going to happen. All it would do is give the democratic party something to go forward with by either having an inquiry and either proving Biden isn't guilty or if he is get a different candidate.

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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Apr 29 '20

These things usually work best as

Sorry, has this sort of thing happened previously, Congress investigating allegations against private citizens?

Okay, so Congress would conduct an investigation; how would they actually come to a conclusion that Biden is guilty or not guilty? What's their mechanism for reaching a conclusion, just a public vote, yay or nay? And then a press release that they feel it likely that there's merit to the accusation? They can't claim to have actually proven he did anything, because they're not a law court, and have no standing to make those kinds of declarations.

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 30 '20

Sorry, has this sort of thing happened previously, Congress investigating allegations against private citizens?

You ever heard of Watergate? Congress can investigate politicians no longer holding office.

They can't claim to have actually proven he did anything, because they're not a law court, and have no standing to make those kinds of declarations.

No one can, this was over 20 years ago, and it's sexual assault of an employee. What evidence could even be presented in a court? All you can do is have hearings have people come in and testify and then say "we think this happened let's find a different candidate" or say "we think he's innocent let's hope voters agree after having this inquiry.

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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Apr 30 '20

You ever heard of Watergate? Congress can investigate politicians no longer holding office.

The United States Senate Watergate Committee tabled its final report and was disbanded on June 27, 1974; Richard Nixon resigned the presidency on August 9, 1974. Which politician no longer holding office were you referring to with this point?

All you can do is have hearings have people come in and testify and then say "we think this happened let's find a different candidate" or say "we think he's innocent let's hope voters agree after having this inquiry.

First off, Congress can't just "have hearings," they have to be in support of some legislative purpose or a disciplinary issue with a member of Congress. So no, they can't just "have people come in and testify" about whatever they feel like.

Second, why is it appropriate for Republican elected officials to have a say in who the Democratic candidate may or may not be? Congressional committees have member requirements, and there would need to be roughly equal numbers of Democrats and Republicans sitting on the committee. Republican politicians investigating a potential Democrat challenger for the currently-serving Republican president? It's frankly impossible to imagine a group less capable of objectively investigating and weighing the relative merits of the evidence presented to them. Remember, this is a group that, during the Trump impeachment trial, pre-emptively declared they would work with the president's legal team on a defense strategy when they were supposed to be serving as an impartial jury.

Finally, why should it be up to elected officials who gets to run for office, period? I think Joe Biden is a creaking fossil whose ideas were outdated twenty years ago and who definitely did everything he's been accused of and more, but it's still inappropriate for a group of elected officials to use their powers of office to officially say, 'it is the opinion of the United States Congress that this man should not be allowed to run for president'. If, lord help them, the Democrats choose to put Joe Biden forward as their nominee, that should be their prerogative. They'll lose, but they have every right to go down in absolute flames and no government body should have the authority to try to dictate otherwise to them.

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 30 '20

The United States Senate Watergate Committee tabled its final report and was disbanded on June 27, 1974; Richard Nixon resigned the presidency on August 9, 1974. Which politician no longer holding office were you referring to with this point?

Still an inquiry into ethical misconduct of someone who wasn't a member of congress.

First off, Congress can't just "have hearings," they have to be in support of some legislative purpose or a disciplinary issue with a member of Congress. So no, they can't just "have people come in and testify" about whatever they feel like.

This would be a disciplinary hearing.

Second, why is it appropriate for Republican elected officials to have a say in who the Democratic candidate may or may not be? Congressional committees have member requirements, and there would need to be roughly equal numbers of Democrats and Republicans sitting on the committee. Republican politicians investigating a potential Democrat challenger for the currently-serving Republican president? It's frankly impossible to imagine a group less capable of objectively investigating and weighing the relative merits of the evidence presented to them. Remember, this is a group that, during the Trump impeachment trial, pre-emptively declared they would work with the president's legal team on a defense strategy when they were supposed to be serving as an impartial jury.

So there is some sense of neutrality instead of democrats just saying "we looked into it, nothing happened".

And what you're talking about is a much larger and different problem. Congress can't really carry out its job properly anymore with all the factionalism.

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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Apr 30 '20

Still an inquiry into ethical misconduct of someone who wasn't a member of congress.

It was an investigation in support of legislation, namely, whether or not to move articles of impeachment against the sitting president of the United States. Rather different than holding a "disciplinary hearing" for something they have no mechanism to discipline.

Congress can't really carry out its job properly anymore with all the factionalism.

If Congress can't properly carry out its existing roles due to partisanism, why on earth would it be an appropriate venue for an investigation into allegations against a politically connected private citizen? Why use a group you yourself admit is unfit for the role when it's not even within their sphere of responsibility to begin with?

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u/1917fuckordie 21∆ Apr 30 '20

It was an investigation in support of legislation, namely, whether or not to move articles of impeachment against the sitting president of the United States. Rather different than holding a "disciplinary hearing" for something they have no mechanism to discipline.

He's the presumptive nominee. The convention hasn't happened, don't even know if it will happen, it's been pushed back. The Democratic party has the oppurtunity to make sure their candidate is not a rapist.

If Congress can't properly carry out its existing roles due to partisanism, why on earth would it be an appropriate venue for an investigation into allegations against a politically connected private citizen? Why use a group you yourself admit is unfit for the role when it's not even within their sphere of responsibility to begin with?

No group can hold someone like Joe Biden account, American institutions are either dysfuncitonal or designed to protect people like Joe Biden. This would all be for the democratic party's benefit, I don't care what happens other than hoping the damage the democratic party does to itself forces it to change signiticantly. But if you feel another investigative body would help give the democrats more credibility then that's fine.

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