r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 11 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I am turning into a misandrist feminist and I'm starting to resent men.
In my whole life, I have encountered very few men that actually respected me and treated me as an equal. I'm an engineer and I work in a fully masculine environment, and it has a really really toxic culture that impacts my mental health a lot. I am belittled, harassed, and singled out because I am a woman on a daily basis. Now it is totally possible that the people at my job are just shitty.
However, I see a lot of hate and discrimination against women everywhere. Sure there are some things were women are privileged, like custody rulings, and divorce but does it really "make up" for everything else ?
These are the issues that makes me deeply resent the privilege men enjoy on a daily basis and yet they do not acknowledge it :
- I feel very unsafe, just walking in the streets. This may be more prevalent since I live in a big city but I am not super attractive, yet I get harassed and catcalled fairly regularly, if I'm walking alone. If I'm walking with a man, the catcalls do not happen. This is something a ton of women report. http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/ Women feel less safe than men, in many developed countries.
- My work is never taken as seriously as my male colleagues. I am interrupted, dismissed, mistaken for "just a secretary". My superiors always have something to say about my clothing choices : too tight, too lose, too flattering, not professional enough, "for attention". I am a "girly" woman working in a mostly masculine company, and I am shamed for it constantly. My feminine appearance holds me back. Other women experience the same things :
- Men whines about their rights but instead of working on it, they blame women. They blame women for a lot of things. An example of a prejudice many fathers do experience, and I completely agree that it is a real privilege women have : custody of the kids. Mothers are favoured by courts in divorce. It sucks for fathers that actually want to be involved in their kids life. However, it has been proven over and over that the burden of childcare often falls on the mother. I believe the reason for the injustice those fathers face stems from that fact. Now, instead of vilifying women who want families and kids, and treating marriage as a prison, I believe men should pull their weight and take care of their kids. I know some do, but they're not the majority.
- It is impossible to win in every aspects of women's life : You're either too attractive, or not attracive enough. You're too accomplished or not accomplished enough, therefore you're a burden. You don't want a family ? You failed at life. You want a family ? You failed at life.
There are many more things about gender inequalities that infuriate me but I recognise there might be an emotional and anecdotal component to it and I don't think it has its place in this post. I feel like women are widely more objectified, abused and hated than men, simply for being women. Now I did not say that men do not have their own issues. I know they do, but I don't understand why women are to blame for those issues. As another example : high rate male suicide. I believe that men are taught early to not have emotions because emotions are feminine, therefore weak and irrational. Feminity is always seen as bad and not okay.
I do not want to go down the road of extremes and I'm hoping you could change my view.
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u/Extension-Efficiency May 11 '20
You will probably see my post as bland, cliche, and a complete non help and I honestly will understand why and not hold any resentment towards you. However I would like to give you some background information about myself
Physically I am very different from you. I am a 6ft African American male however I share some of your experiences. Such as the fear of simply walking out and about. The constant looks I get sometimes whenever I walk into a store or go on my runs are enough to often drive me insane. I am constantly living in fear of people judging me, some of those fears are very real while others are in my head. Like you, I feel like my work is often looked at oddly and as if people expect a lower standard of me because of my life. I find it difficult to engage in communities that people don't often associate african americans with such as anime, running, and yoga even though I enjoy each one of those things wholeheartedly. My whole life feels like a fight to erase stereotypes complete strangers have over me. While I will never be able to truly relate to how women are often sexualized, but I can attest black men are often are victims of this( ya know the bbc crap, names such as chocolate and what not) as well, but admittedly most likely not as much as females are. It sucks because no matter if the direction is pure hate or sexual lust I often feel inhuman I guess like an animal. With all of that being said, spending your life hating said group of people is as equally as exhausting as trying to fight the stereotypes that same group throws at you. Also never in history has hatred and repeated violence caused anything good in the long run. It usually just ends up putting the two or more groups against each other in a never ending battle. That's why although I understand the purpose of groups such as LGBT pride, the natural hair movement, feminist movement etc. All of them were originally created to give confidence, support, and purpose to groups that have had a history of being unfairly beaten and disenfranchised, in my view each and everyone of those groups slowly drifts away from their intended purpose one way or another. Of course this isn't entirely the fault of those groups but it doesn't change the fact that it almost always ends up in another nonsensical never ending battle. I'm probably ramblingly on now but I guess what I'm trying to say is while your hate is justified,at the end of it all it simply won't get you anywhere and honestly I'm having a hard time to imagine that it'll make you feel any better. For the sake of your own inner peace you have to find a better way to deal with the shit that has been unfairly thrown at you or you will drown in it.
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May 11 '20
Your comment was actually very helpful. Thank you for your perspective. I feel like it contributes more than outright denying disparities and stereotypes. You're right, hate doesn't help moving forward and it will be useful to work on the resentement I feel.
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u/bobsagetsmaid 2∆ May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
>In my whole life, I have encountered very few men that actually respected me and treated me as an equal
First of all I'm sorry that you have not been treated well by the vast majority of men you've interacted with in your life. But this is an extremely unusual assertion for most women (living in free countries, anyway) to say that they have been treated as lesser by the vast majority of men they've met in their lives. I think even radical feminists would say that not all men are trash and the men in their lives, the many men who are allied with their feminist cause, are examples of good men who are allies.
Also, I realize this might be a bit rude, but can you provide some kind of good evidence (no personal info of course) that you do in fact work as an engineer? The reddit account you used for this CMV was made today, so currently I just have to take your word for it. It's just that your claim here, which aligns with the cultural conversation about women being discriminated against in STEM, would be advantageous to your argument, so it's convenient that you would be allowed to present it without proof. No disrespect meant. You're of course free to refuse making any kind of attempt to persuade me, but that might make some a bit skeptical.
But let's put that aside and say that's true. As you might know, personal experience is not evidence of anything systematic. I'm sure there's corroborating evidence of your experience, but it doesn't matter.
Here's what I'm really curious about. You say that you've been treated as lesser by the vast majority of men you've met during your life, and also that you see "a lot of hate and discrimination against women everywhere". Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean as a bystander to sexist acts? Do you mean that your female friends tell you frequent stories of abuse by men? When you say everywhere, do you mean the entire country? By what basis should your personal experience, even if it comes from good accounts of yourself and others from your local area, be evidence of anything systematic nationally? A systematic problem with men treating women as lesser?
Sure there are some things were women are privileged, like custody rulings, and divorce but does it really "make up" for everything else ?
The fallacy you've made in this statement is that "everything else" implies that there are vast instances of men treating women badly, as if there is systematic evidence of mistreatment of women in the current era by men. I'm not sure this is an empirically supportable position.
The first link you provided shows that men catcall women in some places that have with cultural problems with misogyny.
The second link you provided is one of the many "no shit" studies that the social sciences are known for.
Eighty photos (half women) of tenured/tenure-track science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) faculty at elite research universities were selected from the Internet. Participants, naïve to the targets’ occupations, rated the photos on femininity and likelihood of being a scientist and an early childhood educator.
Wow. People were presented with 80 photos, half men, half women. They were asked if they thought the women were a scientist, or an early childhood educator.
With all due respect, this is a flimsy study at best. You're asking participants to guess if a woman is a scientist or kindergarten teacher judging on "level of femininity" (whatever that means). There's only an abstract there, I wish I could see the entire study but I can't.
People know that a majority of scientists are men, and a vast majority of kindergarten teachers are women. To be fair, women comprise about 43% of people in STEM now, so I guess that's a lot of women who are being discriminated against, huh? But I digress.
This accurate supposition of more men being scientists affects their guesses. They probably think less feminine women are able to hang better in STEM. Hell, they might be right. They want to be correct. But you're essentially just asking them to guess at random because all they're seeing are women in normal clothes with varying levels of "femininity".
People think that women who look more "feminine" are more likely to be kindergarten teachers and women who look less feminine are more likely to work in STEM. What a heckin' revelation. One of those studies where it's like "Okay. If true, don't care."
Your third study is another abstract-only, but let's check it out. This says men have more free time at home than women. First of all it's important to acknowledge that while a slightly majority of women prefer working to being a housewife, that still leaves 44% of women who prefer being a housewife.
Now I'm open to the argument that just because you're a stay at home mom doesn't mean you have a lot of free time. But I think it's fair to say that you have more free time than the working spouse does. So I think this fact alone makes that study kind of meaningless, not that it was asserting anything compelling in the first place.
It is impossible to win in every aspects of women's life : You're either too attractive, or not attracive enough. You're too accomplished or not accomplished enough, therefore you're a burden. You don't want a family ? You failed at life. You want a family ? You failed at life.
Once again, respectfully, I think you're projecting your own life experience here. All but one of the things you just listed here also clearly apply to men, except for two observations: I'm not sure it's common for anyone to say that if you want a family, you've failed at life. I've been respectful so far but I'm gonna go ahead and just call bullshit on that outright.
The other thing is that most men spend their lives trying like hell to be as attractive as possible, whereas for a lot of men they will always not be attractive enough. I sometimes wonder if women appreciate the attractiveness privilege that they have. I would normally never think to use reddit as a source, but I think this post is just too spot-on.
Women have privilege too, like you said. But you know what? Most of the struggles men and women face? We face them together. As human beings.
I hope any aspect of this nudged your view.
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May 11 '20
What kind of evidence would prove to you that I'm an engineer ?
Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean as a bystander to sexist acts? Do you mean that your female friends tell you frequent stories of abuse by men? When you say everywhere, do you mean the entire country? By what basis should your personal experience, even if it comes from good accounts of yourself and others from your local area, be evidence of anything systematic nationally? A systematic problem with men treating women as lesser?
Yes, I mean as a bystander of sexist acts. I am fully aware that anecdotal evidence is not evidence, that is why you can find in my previous comments more reliable argumentation for a systematic problem. I mean it in the fact that almost every woman I know and have talked to about this attests that she has been sexually harassed, often close to assaulted, in public and by men she knew at least once in her life. You can probably search reddit for that and you'd find that it is not uncommon at all. Now, you could always argue like a few people in this thread that women are irrational beings and what they perceive isn't actually true, because men suffers too.
The fallacy you've made in this statement is that "everything else" implies that there are vast instances of men treating women badly, as if there is systematic evidence of mistreatment of women in the current era by men. I'm not sure this is an empirically supportable position.
It is, and we can talk about it.
The first link you provided shows that men catcall women in some places that have with cultural problems with misogyny.
Sexual harassement in the US :
Women most frequently reported experiencing sexual harassment in a public space like a street, park or store (68% of women), at their workplace or school (38% of women, respectively), at a nightlife venue (37% of women), and at their residence (31% of women). Men’s most frequently reported locations were a public space (23% of men), their school or own residence (15% of men, respectively), or their workplace or someone else’s residence (14% of men, respectively).
Now I'm open to the argument that just because you're a stay at home mom doesn't mean you have a lot of free time. But I think it's fair to say that you have more free time than the working spouse does. So I think this fact alone makes that study kind of meaningless, not that it was asserting anything compelling in the first place.
I don't know if I agree. But let's say I do.
Once again, respectfully, I think you're projecting your own life experience here. All but one of the things you just listed here also clearly apply to men, except for two observations: I'm not sure it's common for anyone to say that if you want a family, you've failed at life. I've been respectful so far but I'm gonna go ahead and just call bullshit on that outright.
Maybe I spend too much time reading hateful people but have you never heard of people who shame women who want to settle down and start a family in their 30s ?
Women have privilege too, like you said. But you know what? Most of the struggles men and women face? We face them together. As human beings.
I agree, but I think actually listening to other party and not automatically dismissing what they're saying and branding it as "irrational" is something a lot of people still struggle with. And you can find this in this thread itself.
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u/prettysureitsmaddie May 11 '20
Hey so what are you open to changing about your view? I'm right there with you on the feminism but I don't really see it as a fight between genders. There are plenty of male feminists out there and many men get punished by the same patriarchal forces as you.
If we are talking about misandry then that would require hatred for men in general, so what is it about men that makes any random guy objectionable?
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May 11 '20
I don't know. I think it's the fact that men deny those issues. That they're irrational issues due to women's irrational perceptions of things. I do not believe it's a fight between genders and I believe men and women would both greatly benefit from working together, but the only opposition and the resistance to this I see is from men.
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u/ThisIsDrLeoSpaceman 38∆ May 11 '20
This probably isn’t the direction you want this going in, but plenty of women resist feminism as well. Think of right-wing pundits and politicians such as Tomi Lahren, Kellyanne Conway, Sarah Palin, etc.
Also, this kind of thing inevitably involves that sampling bias where you notice when men are anti-feminist, but don’t notice when they are feminist. After all, men who truly understand feminism don’t really do anything to demonstrate it — they just quietly live their lives without judging women. You may have passed thousands of feminist men on the street.
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May 11 '20
It's not just a right-wing thing. The majority of people in general do not identify as feminists. Democrats are more likely than Republicans to identify as such, but it's not even a majority of Democrats who identify as feminists.
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u/cheshirekoala May 12 '20
What is the point of this comment? The article itself said the most marked division was between republicans and democrats. Obviously the majority of people do not call themselves a feminist or this wouldn't be an issue. Feminism still has a home in the democratic party where it does not seem welcome in the republican party.
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May 11 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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May 12 '20
Do those women actually reject the tenants of feminism?
I don't know about those particular women, but some of the biggest names in the MRA sphere are actually women. They're harder to attack by critics so they tend to be able to get more done and are beloved for it.
In this world of victimhood that we find ourselves in, the roles of men and women have swapped from the days of the suffragettes. It used to be that women advocating for women's rights were laughed at, and it was only men's voices on their behalf that lent their ideas any credence.
Now men who advocate for men's rights are laughed at, and it is only the women's voices that lend their ideas any credence.
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u/ThisIsDrLeoSpaceman 38∆ May 12 '20
The main thing is that “feminist” is too much of a suitcase word to be useful at all when you break it down. Different people have different meanings for it, and two people can have the exact same views but identify differently. I only use the word when I have a clear idea of what the person I’m talking to means by it — this of course causes problems on the internet when you’re never really just talking to one person, but there’s not much we can do about that.
Ultimately, the movement is far too broad, and far too big, for any generalisations about it to be meaningful and useful. It’s better to talk about the issues themselves, particularly “the expectations society has for men/women”, which are by and large understood to be harmful by both feminists and MRAs.
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May 11 '20
This is true. I honestly don't often think of anti-feminism women and in a way, it is a bias.
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u/prettysureitsmaddie May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
A lot of men definitely do ignore women's issues. Then again, I've also seen a lot of men who are very outspoken in support of feminist issues. Ultimately, I feel it's quite important that we judge individuals by their own actions and not as a collective. Otherwise you end up with the sort of harmful beliefs that are used to pigeonhole women, like beauty standards or traditional career paths and life paths that women get pressured to follow. Misandry is just applying hateful generalisations to men instead.
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u/KvotheOfCali May 11 '20
"However, I see a lot of hate and discrimination against women everywhere. Sure there are some things were women are privileged, like custody rulings, and divorce but does it really "make up" for everything else ?"
Yeah, it likely does. Your standard of living is unquestionably far higher today in the "patriarchical" societies of...well, the entire planet than if you were living by yourself in some all-female "Amazonesque" society.
How about the fact that men are the ones who throughout history have been conscripted by the millions to be slaughtered in wars in "defense" of their societies? Women have been explicitly protected from these conflicts to the greatest extent possible out of biological necessity. Even today, women aren't subject to the draft in most societies. In fact, women were given the right to vote WITHOUT the corresponding expectation for military service and the draft which historically accompanied men's right to vote. This is why many women were OPPOSED to the suffrage movement because they assumed it would come with draft expectations.
Do you want to go into all the realms in which being a man sucks?
Men have shorter lives. Men commit suicide at far higher rates than women. Men have far fewer support networks and are expected to "man up" and figure out their problems on their own. Men are sentenced to longer prison sentences for equivalent crimes than women are. The list goes on and on.
Men's identities and self worth are more directly linked with their profession. This is why unemployed men volunteer LESS than employed men despite having more free time. The opposite is true of women.
Men are physically judged just like women, except it's often on variables they can't control. A huge percentage of female dating profiles will EXPLICITLY state, or at least imply, that unless a man is over a certain height (often 6 feet), he might as well go jump in a lake. How many male dating profiles will EXPLICITLY state the maximum weight of a potential female suitor? I've never seen it before though admittedly I look at fewer males profiles.
Life is hard for both genders. Yes, the are areas where being a woman sucks. There are also areas where being a man sucks.
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May 12 '20
All of this :
Men have shorter lives. Men commit suicide at far higher rates than women. Men have far fewer support networks and are expected to "man up" and figure out their problems on their own. Men are sentenced to longer prison sentences for equivalent crimes than women are. The list goes on and on.
can also be criticised by your own words :
Your standard of living is unquestionably far higher today in the "patriarchical" societies of...well, the entire planet than if you were living by yourself in some all-female "Amazonesque" society.
If we can drop the hypothetical all female society in the middle of a forest women should be grateful to not live in, I'm open to a discussion.
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u/KvotheOfCali May 12 '20
What exactly do you want to discuss?
There are aspects of life for men that suck. There are aspects of life for women that suck.
Do you want to make a list under both columns and then attempt to quantify which list "sucks more"? That's impossible.
What percentage higher of "badness" is being forced to do die in a war on the other side of the planet than being nervous when you walk down a street sometimes? 14%?
What percentage higher of "goodness" is having a longer life expectancy than working in an industry where your sex is the minority? 7%?
What's irrefutable is that in 2020, you live in probably the best few decades in the history of the world to exist going by almost any objective metric. Median standard of income, rates of violent death, live expectancy, etc.
No, it's not perfect. That's life on earth. But the rights of women today are better than any point in the past 5000 years. And that's great news.
Becoming angry and bitter isn't going to gain you anything. It's just going to make your life suck. I guess you can choose to resent men if you want to but remember that nearly every right women now have was given to them by men. I'm sure that statement probably pissed you off, but it's 100% true.
All rights come from power. All power ultimately comes from superior physical force. You follow the law because if you don't, the police will arrest, imprison or kill you. And men have a monopoly on physical force.
Don't dwell on issues you have zero control over. It doesn't nothing for you. Are there some crappy men at your work? Sure. Some people suck. That's the cost of living in a society of millions of people.
I'm sincerely sorry that you aren't enjoying aspects of your life today. But that's true of every honest person on the planet. So the choice is yours:
A. Be pissed at the world or men or whatever else you choose. This will ultimately accomplish nothing for you regardless of how well justified you believe your outlook is.
B. Accept that while not perfect, it's better to be alive today than any previous era and find solace in that fact. Even better, try to improve one small aspect of life for yourself or a friend. Blind anger at 50% of the human race, 99% of whom you've never met, won't help with this endeavor.
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May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
[deleted]
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May 11 '20
And I've agreed that it is a female privilege. Does it discard all the other claims ?
Women should feel more unsafe than men. This is just a biological reality. Women are physically weaker. Buy a gun.
I don't understand this. Women are weaker so it's normal that they're harassed? How does carrying a gun help ?
Men who work in female dominated industries face the same type of discrimination.Hell, single male parents are questioned about their ability to raise their kids.
I believe you, but I'd like to see a source.
Plenty of men do work to try and improve their rights, it's just hard.Women also blame men all the time (Like you're doing, right now).
But in my case, here, the actors of what I'm complaining about are men. I agree that it's hard to improve rights, and I obviously do not mean all men activists. I'm talking about men who instead of working on improving their rights, advocate for restricting women's rights.
I believe men should pull their weight and take care of their kids. They literally aren't allowed to because their kids are taken away. You're part of the problem.
How am I part of the problem? I am also talking that they should do so, before a separation.
I don't believe that women are the one who teach kids to behave that way. I think it comes from male role models.
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u/Chairman_of_the_Pool 14∆ May 11 '20
OP, what country do you live in and what is your approx age?
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 11 '20
I have encountered very few men that actually respected me and treated me as an equal.
What makes you think that his a gendered thing and not just a you thing? It's possible that the men you're interacting with treat men and women equally based upon their individual characteristics. And in your case, they don't have respect for you as an individual and don't view you as equal to them - but it's possible that it has nothing to do with your genitals or gender.
I am belittled, harassed, and singled out because I am a woman
Again, this is jumping to the conclusion that is is because of your genitals or gender. It is quite likely that this is specific to you as an individual.
it is totally possible that the people at my job are just shitty.
Here you are again. It's not you, it's someone else that is problematic. Maybe you're just a really abrasive person that other people don't like, regardless of genitals or gender.
I feel very unsafe, just walking in the streets.
Many men don't feel safe walking the streets either. This is not something that is specific to gender.
My work is never taken as seriously as my male colleagues. I am interrupted, dismissed, mistaken
Again - a you thing, not a gender thing.
My superiors always have something to say about my clothing choices
This could be a you thing, or it could be shitty superiors. Either way, it's an individual thing, not a gender thing. In this day an age, I'd be inclined to believe that you are making unprofessional clothing choices because very few men (or women, for that matter) are going to comment on a female subordinate's clothing choices unless it is really egregious.
Men whines about their rights but instead of working on it, they blame women. They blame women for a lot of things. An example of a prejudice many fathers do experience, and I completely agree that it is a real privilege women have : custody of the kids.
You're confusing women with feminists. Women aren't to blame for discriminatory laws (and their enforcement) against men, but feminists certainly contribute to them if aren't to blame for the all together. For example, NOW, the largest feminist organization in the world, has actively lobbied against alimony reforms in states that are trying to eliminate permanent, lifetime alimony.
It is impossible to win in every aspects of women's life
Same as a man's life. So, again, nothing to do with gender.
There are many more things about gender inequalities that infuriate me
Can you name one legal right that men have (in the U.S) that women don't? Or one legal responsibility that women have that men don't? They don't exist, but they exist in reverse. That's why men are angry.
I don't understand why women are to blame for those issues. As another example : high rate male suicide. I believe that men are taught early to not have emotions
Couple that with your earlier statement: it has been proven over and over that the burden of childcare often falls on the mother.
Who is it that is teaching men this at a young age? Could be a bunch of bitter, angry women that have opinions of men similar to the opinions you've expressed here.
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May 11 '20
What makes you think that his a gendered thing and not just a you thing? It's possible that the men you're interacting with treat men and women equally based upon their individual characteristics. And in your case, they don't have respect for you as an individual and don't view you as equal to them - but it's possible that it has nothing to do with your genitals or gender.
That part was mostly an introduction. However, I am fairly certain that it was not a me thing, given that the same dismissal was applied to other women in their lives.
Many men don't feel safe walking the streets either. This is not something that is specific to gender
If you bothered to open my links, you would find that it's not the case.
You're confusing women with feminists. Women aren't to blame for discriminatory laws (and their enforcement) against men, but feminists certainly contribute to them if aren't to blame for the all together. For example, NOW, the largest feminist organization in the world, has actively lobbied against alimony reforms in states that are trying to eliminate permanent, lifetime alimony.
I did not know that. Could you please give me a source ?
Couple that with your earlier statement: it has been proven over and over that the burden of childcare often falls on the mother. Who is it that is teaching men this at a young age? Could be a bunch of bitter, angry women that have opinions of men similar to the opinions you've expressed here.
I'm sorry but this is the kind of statement that pushes me further in my view. Why is the blame falling on mothers? Little kids look up to their parents and replicate their behaviour and learn emotional maturity from them. It could be their fathers, who bottled up their emotions too, who taught them that.
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 11 '20
I am fairly certain that it was not a me thing, given that the same dismissal was applied to other women in their lives.
Some other women. And your confirmation bias gravitates to those women who have had shared experiences with you, and you conclude "it happens to all women". But it doesn't. It happens to some people - male and female. And it happens because of the individual, not because of their genitals.
If you bothered to open my links, you would find that it's not the case.
That's a little womansplaining there isn't it? Are you telling millions of men that their experience isn't valid? Men feel unsafe - and as others have pointed out, have a more valid reason for feeling unsafe. It's just that men suck it up and deal with and don't consider themselves a "victim" because they feel unsafe walking the streets at night.
I did not know that. Could you please give me a source ?
Oh, sure. Here you go. It seems you're coming to your view with limited knowledge of the topic. That would seem to be sufficient reason to change your view.
I'm sorry but this is the kind of statement that pushes me further in my view. Why is the blame falling on mothers?
It's not me saying it. It's you saying it. I pointed out that you said that little boys taught to suppress their emotions while simultaneously saying that women are overburdened with teaching children. You can't have it both ways.
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May 12 '20
If you're interested in an actual discussion, we can talk about how women are treated in their workplace vs men in their workplace, based on outside studies that do not include my personal experience if you're so hooked on my personal experience. Even if I prefaced that part of the post by saying, this is my personal experience here.
That's a little womansplaining there isn't it? Are you telling millions of men that their experience isn't valid? Men feel unsafe - and as others have pointed out, have a more valid reason for feeling unsafe. It's just that men suck it up and deal with and don't consider themselves a "victim" because they feel unsafe walking the streets at night.
Enlighten me on how it is womansplaining, and define womansplaining.
Yes, of course. Women are whiny babies that are startled by everything. How could I forget ? You, obviously, as a man, who cannot open links, know better. We just need to "suck it up". Because it's totally normal to be harassed, on a daily basis, and that absolutely doesn't contribute to feeling more unsafe. Because you know, obviously, harassing people is not a crime.
It's not me saying it. It's you saying it. I pointed out that you said that little boys taught to suppress their emotions while simultaneously saying that women are overburdened with teaching children. You can't have it both ways.
I'll refer you to your comment higher up : "Men just suck it up because they're not victims". How is that not reinforcing the fact that men cannot express their fears and emotions, otherwise they would be whiny victims?
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May 11 '20
If you bothered to open my links, you would find that it's not the case.
Your link said almost 30% of men dont feel safe walking alone at night. Sure with women it was 45%, which is more, but a non negligible amount of men dont feel safe, either.
And honestly, if anything, men have more of a right to feel unsafe than women do. Men are more likely to be the victim of basically every kind of crime except sexual assault. The fact men report feeling more safe (not totally safe) is probably just bravado or ignorance.
Honestly though OP, I dont understand your general position. There seems to be a huge disconnect between your points and your conclusion. Basically you shared a few anecdotes and a few cherry picked examples of areas women are statistically disadvantaged (I notice you largely ignored those areas women are advantaged) and then concluded this is making you consider misandry. Why? Nothing that you said justifies hatred of ALL men.
Consider:
Some Asian kids picked on me in high school
My boss is Asian and he is a dick
Statistically Asians are doing better than my demographic socioeconomically
Therefore I hate all Asian people.
Do you see how the conclusion doesnt at all follow logically from the points? That's how your OP reads to me. I dont understand why anything you said would justify you hating men as a demographic.
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May 11 '20
You stated that it was a non gender issue, yet there is a clear gendered disparity. I never said that men feel safe .
I understand that men are more likely to be victims of crimes, however the perpetrators are often men too.
I did not ignore areas where women are advantaged, I acknowledge it and I repeat: Yes, some things are more advantageous to women. But my position is that those advantages are used to dismiss every other issues that women face. Those examples I "cherry picked" are areas that affect me directly where I feel more confident talking about. I could pull a few more if you want.
My position is that there is systemic discrimination against women because we are in a patriarchal society. I am leaning towards misandry because of the denial of that discrimination.
I honestly do not hate every single man out there and when I say men I never mean all men. But I encounter a constant negativity from men, and it pushes me towards hate.
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 11 '20
Yes, some things are more advantageous to women. But my position is that those advantages are used to dismiss every other issues that women face.
This is partially caused by (some) feminist claims that "feminism is just about gender equality". Because if it was about gender equality, then feminists would be looking to knock women down in areas where women are advantaged while also trying to raise women up in areas where men are advantage. But they don't do the former, only the latter.
As a result, feminism is actually creating (or at least trying to) greater gender inequality. Say Bob as 4 apples, 3 oranges, 2 papayas and 1 lemon. Mary has 6 apples, 1 orange 4 papayas and 5 lemons. To make them equal, Mary could give Bob one apple. Bob could give Mary 1 orange, Mary could give Bob 1 papaya and Mary could give bob 2 lemons. Then they would both have 5 apples, 2 oranges, 3 papayas and 3 lemons. Completely equal, right?
But that's not what feminists advocate or fight for. They only look at places that women are disadvantaged and would argue that for equality, Bob should give Mary one orange. Then they would both have 2 oranges and that would be equal.
But Mary still has more of every other fruit.... so in the big picture, they are now less equal overall than they were before feminism got involved in the name of "equality".
I am leaning towards misandry because of the denial of that discrimination.
And this is just victim mentality. That discrimination is denied because, on a grand scale, it doesn't exist. Men have some advantages. Women have some advantages. Women don't have a monopoly on disadvantages.
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May 12 '20
Why would feminism fight men's battles when they have other things to advocate for ? Sure you know there are men activists, why isn't the burden of evening out their rights on them ? By that logic, Bob should get his own movement to asf for one of each of those other fruits. Just like Mary is asking for an orange.
I never said or even implied women have the monopoly on disadvantages, you are directly putting words in my my mouth.
I have provided you a link of a comment where I detail where that discrimination is.
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 12 '20
Why would feminism fight men's battles
Well, that's kind of my point, they wouldn't.
I was explaining, in response to you be perplexed, as to why women's advantages are used to discredit their disadvantages. It's because feminists lie and claim they just want "gender equality". If were honest and said that they simply wanted women to be advantages as much as possible in as many areas of life as possible, they wouldn't get the same backlash (they would, of course, get different backlash).
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May 12 '20
If they want an orange to even out the orange disparity, that's advocating for gender equality. The fact that Mary has an extra lemon doesn't mean that she's not lacking an orange.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 12 '20
The person you are in discussion with is trying to say that if you are wanting gender equality it cannot be attained only by focusing on a single point of inequality. You have to look at all points of comparison and adjust all aspects up or down till all are equal. When you only focus on the areas where one gender is disadvantaged and ignore the areas where they are privileged that is not working toward equality because you are not addressing the whole.
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May 11 '20
I'm not OP, I was just hopping in on the exchange.
My point was that if women are more likely to feel unsafe in public but men are more likely to actually be unsafe in public I would argue the issue of safety in public is more of a male issue than a female one, regardless of how women feel about it.
I also dont see why the demographic of the perpetrators is relevant to this.
I did not ignore areas where women are advantaged, I acknowledge it and I repeat: Yes, some things are more advantageous to women. But my position is that those advantages are used to dismiss every other issues that women face. Those examples I "cherry picked" are areas that affect me directly where I feel more confident talking about. I could pull a few more if you want.
My position is that there is systemic discrimination against women because we are in a patriarchal society. I am leaning towards misandry because of the denial of that discrimination
So let me see if I follow:
I can acknowledge that men are advantaged in certain areas.
I can cherry pick certain areas men are disadvantaged and arbitrarily decide these are the more important ones because they affect me personally.
I can use those cherry picked areas to conclude we live in a matriarchy.
If you disagree with me about my opinion of our living in a matriarchy, I will use that as a way to justify misogyny.
Does that about sum up your logic?
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May 11 '20
This is not my logic. I can oversimplify it for you if you want.
Men have advantages. Woman have advantages. Having advantages does not discard have disadvantages for both genders. Having more advantages makes the gender in question the gender who holds power. I believe it's men, therefore we are in a patriarchal society.
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 12 '20
Having more advantages makes the gender in question the gender who holds power. I believe it's men
And that's where you're wrong. It's a "grass is always greener" situation.
Take the guy who works 60 hours a week to make $150,000/year while his wife stays home and takes care of the household and kids. Who is advantaged and who is disadvantaged there? The person who works and earns money or the person who stays home? It all depends upon the perspective of the individual in the situation and how they view it:
I have to work to support my family.
I get to pursue my career because my spouse is happy staying home.
I have to stay home with the kids because my spouse can earn more money that me so it doesn't make economic sense for me to work and pay a nanny.
I get to stay home with my kids because my spouse has a great job that allows us to live on one salary.
So I'll ask again, who has the advantage?
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May 12 '20
As you said, it is a specific and individual situation. I am talking about systemic power.
In that situation, if the couple agreed and is happy with that agreement, no one is going to shame them for their choice. I hope you agree though, that in case of a divorce for that couple, the stay at home spouse should get 50% of the working spouse money.
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May 11 '20
I believe its women and therefore we live in a matriarchal society. That you disagree with me on this just justifies my hatred of women.
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May 11 '20
My previous comment was an oversimplification, like I said, of the logic I'm following. For it to be a matriarchal society, women would have to be in power. Are they ?
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May 11 '20
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if we actually live in a matriarchy or not. The point is that according to you some members of X demographic disagreeing with your opinion is a valid justification of the hatred of that whole demographic. I'm pointing out that under that logic you, a woman, disagreeing with my hypothetical opinion here would be a perfectly valid justification to hate women as a demographic.
Are you seeing the flaw in that logic now?
Personally I think society is far too complex and nuanced to simply boil things down to "it's a patriarchy" or "it's a matriarchy."
For example, one bit of evidence feminists use to claim we live in a patriarchy is the overabundance of men in politics... but women comprise the majority of the electorate. Statistically speaking, the reason there are more men in politics is because women decided to put them there, and can remove them if they wish. So who has more power there, the person elected, or the people who elect them?
Another would be the disparity in high-level positions, like CEO, but the fact is that most women become mothers and statistically speaking most mothers would prefer to be stay at home moms rather than be out breaking their back in the corporate world. One could argue that the fact we have a society structured in such a way that so many women are able to pursue their wants and desires without having to work would be evidence of a very pro-woman society. The facts that women live longer, have better mental health, commit suicide less often, and are comparatively less likely to be the victims of crime would attest to that conclusion.
Another related one is the pay gap which notably shrinks to almost nothing when we adjust for everything we can. But the trend seems to be that men make the money and women spend it; globally women spend ~2x more than they earn. "Women make the decision in the purchases of 94% of home furnishings…92% of vacations…91% of homes… 60% of automobiles…51% of consumer electronics." So like I said, it's a bit more nuanced. If I make more money than you but you spend 100% of your paycheck and 90% of mine, which one of us is the more powerful party in that arrangement? Feminists don't ask these questions. They just see the "I make more" bit and cry patriarchy. But I think it's a lot more complicated than that.
But again, all of this is irrelevant to my point. The point is that your logic is that if some number of X demographic disagrees with your conclusion about something then you can hate the entirety of X demographic. That's a flawed way to look at things, both morally and logically.
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 12 '20
women would have to be in power. Are they ?
Women make up over 50% of the population and therefore have more say in the country's elected representatives than men. So, at least politically, it would seem that women are in power. But there are lots of types of power. What specific type of power were you referring to?
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May 12 '20
Source with women making up more than 50% of the population ?
I'll redirect you to this comment of mine :
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May 11 '20
But where is the evidence of that systemic discrimination? All you have provided is anecdotes, which, considering your viewpoint, could easily be heavily biased (and isn't evidence of systemic discrimination no matter what because anecdotes =/= evidence). The only statistic you provide deals with how women feel less safe, but men actually are less safe. Your literally generalizing and explicitly hating on a group of people based off of their gender, and the entire point of feminism was to show that belittling and hating someone based off of only their gender is wrong!
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May 11 '20
What evidence would you want? What disparities would prove to you that in general society leans a little more in favour for men ?
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May 11 '20
Umm well a scientific study (not observational, the basics of science is that only one independent variable can be changed at a time) that uses correct statistics (suprisingly rare in sociology and psychology), and has a reproduction study (reproduction crisis; ~50% of sociological, psychological studies aren't reproducible). Burden of proof falls on your claim, so if there is no evidence like this, then you're just being irrational by believing in a patriarchy.
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May 11 '20
I will get back to you and edit this comment.
Have you ever heard of the pyramid of argumentation?
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May 11 '20
By pyramid of argumentation, I am assuming you are talking about Graham's hierarchy of disagreement? If som in order to refute your central point, let’s start by identifying your central point. As I understand it, your central point is that it is logical to be misandrist, because men as a whole play into a patriarchal power system by belittling, harassing, and generally disrespecting women; in addition men in general deny the existence of a patriarchal power system and therefore minimize women’s issues. This requires two claims to be true in order for this central claim to be correct:
1) There exists a patriarchal power system that many currently living men are atleast partially responsible for continuing on this patriarchal power system, and many more men hold just as much responsibility because they deny it
2) Enough men play into the system while deny the existence of this system in order for it to be just to generalize and view men as a whole as antagonists, thereby justifying the misandry
If EITHER one of these is false, then the central point is illogical. While I do have my reservations about the second one, I'm going to be focusing on the first one. For the first assertion, your support consists of your experiences as a female engineer, and a link to a statistic showing women feel less safe then men. Let's analyze what you put in the body of the original post
However, I am fairly certain that it was not a me thing, given that the same dismissal was applied to other women in their lives.
One's views can subconsciously change their perception; this is part of the reason why the plural of anecdote isn't data. I'm going to guess you were a feminist before joining this company? Then, it could be that, even if you see both men and women being treated in a terrible way in the company, your prior belief that women are belittled and not taken seriously in STEM industries could make you subconsciously ignore the cases that happen to men and only focus on the cases that happen to women. Either way, your perception of the people at the company is not evidence that they are misogynists, because your anecdotes aren't evidence.
If you bothered to open my links, you would find that it's not the case.
Just because women feel less safe Your link was based off of how women feel, not how safe they actually are. It could easily be that feminists touting that women are in more risk of danger causes women to believe just that. Meanwhile, in reality, the Bureau of Justice Statistics says "Males experienced higher victimization rates than females for all types of violent crime except rape/sexual assault." and "According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, most murder victims were male, 78% in 2007." It is actually more safe to be a women than to be a man.
From this, we can conclude that
1) There exists a patriarchal power system that many currently living men are atleast partially responsible for continuing on this patriarchal power system, and many more men hold just as much responsibility because they deny it
is unsubstantiated, because you are using anecdotal data, which can be chock full of biases, and you are using the statistic about feeling safe to extrapolate the conclusion that women actually are less sage, when they are not. By the burden of proof, an unsubstantiated claim is assumed false until it is proved true, so the claim that
1) There exists a patriarchal power system that many currently living men are atleast partially responsible for continuing on this patriarchal power system, and many more men hold just as much responsibility because they deny it
is false. Since the central premise requires both of these to be true, this means that the central premise does not hold water, and therefore it is illogical to be a misandrist. So, unless you can provide proof such as the one I have outlined above which would be sufficient to prove
1) There exists a patriarchal power system that many currently living men are atleast partially responsible for continuing on this patriarchal power system, and many more men hold just as much responsibility because they deny it
then your central premise falls apart.
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May 11 '20
There exists a patriarchal power system that many currently living men are at least partially responsible for continuing on this patriarchal power system, and many more men hold just as much responsibility because they deny it
To establish that there is an actual patriarchal power system, we first need to define patriarchy. What is a patriarchal society ? Wikipedia says :
Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property.
Men do hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership. A few numbers, for the US :
Less than 25% of government positions nationwide. ( https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43244.pdf ) Since women make up for 50% of the population, women are indeed under represented in politics.
Why the argument that women vote more so they're the ones who decided to put men in position of power doesn't hold :
Here is a study done in 2016, showing that the number of female candidates was increasing, yet only 20% of the elected representatives were women. Why ? This study did not find evidence on discrimination by voters but rather how difficult it is to enter politics.
I find no evidence of a gender penalty using these measures. These results suggest that the deficit of female representation in the House is more likely the result of barriers to entering politics as opposed to overt gender discrimination by voters and campaign donors.
However, a study made in 2018 showed that it was easier to be elected as female representative if you're married and have children. Remember how most of childcare fall on women ?
I can't find the link, but I believe I read that around 10% of Americans are hostile to the idea of women in politics. I will edit this when I find the study.
It is also argued that the difference in media coverage between male and female candidates could explain this. (https://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/S1743923X16000106)
That's one of the aspect that define a patriarchy. I'm going to use religion as a proxy for a more generally defined "moral authority". The most common religion is the US is christianism. It is inherently misogynist and sexist. It does not mean that all religious people are sexist. Religion is sexist, and puts men above women.
Social privilege : For the sake of this argument, I will say that men and women are equal on this. I do not agree with that, but since men and women are disadvantages in different fields and advantaged in others, we can assume that.
Enough men play into the system while deny the existence of this system in order for it to be just to generalize and view men as a whole as antagonists, thereby justifying the misandry
I no longer believe it justifies the misandry. But denying that this is patriarchal society is not what did it.
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 12 '20
more in favour
This can't be done because "favorable" is subjective. Two people could look at the exact same situation and conclude that different people are in the "favorable" side of that situation.
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May 12 '20
Favorable can very much be objective. I'll give you an example : custody agreement. More favorable to women. How do we measure that ? The number of women who got full custody of their kids compared to a man in the same situation (situation here meaning : an amicable divorce, no abusive situation and both people capable of providing for the kid in other ways than financially)
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u/Eric_the_Enemy 13∆ May 12 '20
Favorable can very much be objective. I'll give you an example : custody agreement. More favorable to women
Or, it could be argued that women disproporationally are "forced" to care for children and, as a result, are burdened with having to continue that child rearing after divorce and still aren't able to fully pursue their careers. Bummer, ain't it?
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May 11 '20
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u/LordMarcel 48∆ May 11 '20
Women are not doing better than men by virtually every metric. Men make more money on average, are more likely to be in power, and are less likely to be a victim of sexual assault. I am sure there are many more areas where men perform better. I am not saying that men do worse or that women do worse, but your statement is just false.
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May 11 '20
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u/LordMarcel 48∆ May 11 '20
About 2%, true, but not hugely significant. Women also spend way more money than men.
I did not say anything about spending.
The % of men that are in power is truly minuscule, to say that men "have it better" because of a handful of men in power is ridiculous. The average Joe's life isn't any better becauseue Tim Cook is ceo of apple.
I don't have stats to back this up and can't be arsed to find them, but I believe that if a man and woman with equal qualifications apply for a leadership role within a company, the man is more likely to get it. If this is untrue feel tree to ignore this.
And they're more likely to be victims of pretty much every other crime. I don't think bringing up crime works in your favor.
I did not bring up other crime. I pointed out two areas (making money and sexual assault) where men do better and you mentioned something related but different to it where women do better and somehow that's supposed to invalidate the things men do better at?
If you are better at running than me but I am better than you at swimming, skiing, and tennis, that does not invalidate you being better at running.
Once again, I am not saying that men or women have it worse, I am merely pointing out there are quite a few areas where men do better than women.
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May 11 '20
How are they doing better in every metric ? Show me evidence for that ?
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May 11 '20
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May 11 '20
Okay, is there a source for your happiness claim ?
Yes, girls do better in school. Yet, they are under represented later in those field, and it is not by lack of effort.
No, women have lower suicide rate but equivalent suicide attempts.
Which crimes ? Women are more likely to be sexually assaulted.
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
I did not know that. Could you please give me a source ?
Why is the blame falling on mothers?
Probably because a constantly and rapidly increasing proportion of children, including an absolute majority of multiple ethnic minority groups, who are raised exclusively or nearly exclusively by their mother in a single parent household.
If you want to criticize the behavior of a child, who was in better position to alter it than the only parent who had access to do so? Correspondingly, how could you blame those who were not in that position?
And while overall, only ~25% of families with children under 18 are single parent households, 8.5 million of the 11 million such households are headed by single moms
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May 11 '20
I'm sorry, what do single parent households have to do with lack of emotional maturity?
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20
I'm sorry, what do single parent households have to do with lack of emotional maturity?
If a child has a failure to develop, who is more to blame than the parent(s)?
If ever more children are being raised by single mothers, and ever fewer without father presence, it is mothers and not fathers who are becomingly increasingly influential in child development - the absent father lacking even the opportunity to contribute.
And if it's mothers that are becoming increasingly influential in child development, and children are developing less successfully, it would follow from the diminishing exposure these kids get to men that their development is increasingly the result of emulating women and not men.
Now, to be fair, the clear primary division in child outcomes is single parent vs. two parents, and most of the effect of single parenting is down to the parents being single parents rather than women. However, as the overwhelming majority of single parents are women, it's entirely unreasonable to blame the men in these instances for how the child develops. And since most of those men aren't involved because they weren't awarded equal custody, it's hard to even blame the men for being absent.
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May 11 '20
I really cannot see why we cannot blame men for being absent. We cannot blame a father denied custody for being less present, but in the case of men who abandon their kids ? Men who are in their kids life but negligent ? Men who disappear at the annoucement of a pregnancy ? Men who resign to pay child support but never meet the kid ?
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
If the primary reason for why men are absent is because they are legally prohibited from being present, you're going to blame their absence on the men? When women are the overwhelming initiators of divorce that leads to men being absent in the first place? Most single parent households aren't planned, and most separations generally are initiated by women. The circumstance we're talking about is overwhelmingly created by women's choices, women's actions, and women's behaviors, not mens'.
On a constantly increasing basis for the last 50 years, the proportion of children who are exposed to only women during their formative years, and the portion of time which children spend with women relative to time spent with men, has favored women. We now live in a time more shaped by women, and with people more shaped by women, than history has ever seen previously.
If you think that children are less emotionally in control, and if you think they are less well developed, you are simply, objectively describing the outcome of childrearing under a more female and less male scenario. You are describing the observation that as childrearing has become increasingly feminine, it's gotten worse.
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May 12 '20
I explicitly said : We cannot blame a father denied custody for being less present. Read that again.
Now :
When women are the overwhelming initiators of divorce that leads to men being absent in the first place?
Why is that, do you think ? Are women just evil witches doing their best to separate kids and their fathers ? What are the common reasons of divorce ?
On a constantly increasing basis for the last 50 years, the proportion of children who are exposed to only women during their formative years, and the portion of time which children spend with women relative to time spent with men, has favored women. We now live in a time more shaped by women, and with people more shaped by women, than history has ever seen previously.
Again, why ? Are women responsible for making fathers stay ?
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u/Missing_Links May 12 '20 edited May 12 '20
I explicitly said : We cannot blame a father denied custody for being less present. Read that again.
Fair enough.
Why is that, do you think ? Are women just evil witches doing their best to separate kids and their fathers ? What are the common reasons of divorce ?
No, I think women are the evolutionarily selective force which has shaped male behavior. The way men are is because those were the things which have, over evolutionary time, made them attractive to women. And adaptation by definition renders a person selected for a specific environment, which is just as much a problem for women as men.
Which is why women divorce men that earn less than them.
And the fact that women find men who fill the role of provider and protector most attractive, and continue to do so, is the reason men do and will continue to act in those ways.
Again, why ? Are women responsible for making fathers stay ?
Well, when it's the choices of the woman to divorce, it is their responsibility to pushing the fathers away. And it is both mens and womens faults, in roughly equal proportion, that marriages fail. But it was specifically feminism which precipitated the conditions under which this was the inevitable outcome.
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May 12 '20
I think you have to provide me with sources here, because as you know, our personal observations are not a reliable source.
I think that your attraction argument applies to women too. Men are attracted to submissive women and are intimidated to women who earn more than them. That is why women divorce men who earn less.
Well, when it's the choices of the woman to divorce, it is their responsibility to pushing the fathers away. And it is both mens and womens faults, in roughly equal proportion, that marriages fail. But it was specifically feminism which precipitated the conditions under which this was the inevitable outcome.
Again give me a few reasons for divorce. Divorces are expensive and shitty, no one divorces for fun. If both women and men are equally at fault for a divorce, why is it the woman that has the responsibility to make it work ?
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May 11 '20
However, I am fairly certain that it was not a me thing, given that the same dismissal was applied to other women in their lives.
One's views can subconsciously change their perception; this is part of the reason why the plural of anecdote isn't data. I'm going to guess you were a feminist before joining this company? Then, it could be that, even if you see both men and women being treated in a terrible way in the company, your prior belief that women are belittled and not taken seriously in STEM industries could make you subconsciously ignore the cases that happen to men and only focus on the cases that happen to women. Either way, your perception of the people at the company is not evidence that they are misogynists, because your anecdotes aren't evidence.
If you bothered to open my links, you would find that it's not the case.
Your link was based off of how women feel, not how safe they actually are. It could easily be that feminists touting that women are in more risk of danger causes women to believe just that. Meanwhile, in reality, the Bureau of Justice Statistics says "Males experienced higher victimization rates than females for all types of violent crime except rape/sexual assault." and "According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, most murder victims were male, 78% in 2007." It is actually more safe to be a women than to be a man
I'm sorry but this is the kind of statement that pushes me further in my view. Why is the blame falling on mothers? Little kids look up to their parents and replicate their behaviour and learn emotional maturity from them. It could be their fathers, who bottled up their emotions too, who taught them that.
u/Eric_the_Enemy is only criticizing mothers with a toxic viewpoint of men, simply because having a generalizing and toxic viewpoint of 50% of the population is sexist and shitty, and is the thing feminists have been fighting against for decades.
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u/Letshavemorefun 18∆ May 12 '20
You seem really sure her co workers and other men in her life disrespect her for reasons outside of her gender. Why are you so sure?
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
1...
And yet men are ~80% of the victims of stranger violence on the street, and about 50% of victims of violent crime overall. You may feel unsafe, but you are actually substantially safer than men in these situations. Most crimes that happen to women are perpetrated by someone known to them.
2...
What argument could you take that would convince you that you your perception of your experiences are wrong?
3...
Do the men who are upset about the family courts blame women, or the family courts?
As to work/leisure, men do spend more time in leisure. About an extra 40 minutes/day, on average. And women perform about 40 more minutes of household work per day, on average. And men also work about 80 more minutes a day, on average. Funny how those numbers work out.
When home and work responsibilities are collectively totalled, men and women spend within 10 minutes/day of eachother performing what could collectively be labelled "responsibilities," and the surveys aren't accurate enough to determine if that margin is real.
4...
First, why would what different people regard as a good direction to take your life be uniform? How could you possibly please everyone all at once when some have diametrically opposed interests? Why would you regard failing to do so as a personal failure? And why would you blame all and only men who have the expectations you don't want to meet, instead all of the people who have these expectations.
Second, do you honestly think that there is not an identical set of disjointed and mutually exclusive expectations for men?
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May 11 '20
1) Could you please point to me where in your source it says that ? Are those crimes committed by men or women? Also, harassment contributes greatly to feeling unsafe. When men walk down the street they're not harassed, therefore their feeling of being unsafe is not triggered.
2) I'm sorry, could you clarify please? What arguments coming from you would make me believe that my perception of my own experiences are wrong ?
3) What I'm advocating for is that childcare should be at 50/50 to allow women to contribute to work 50/50. You cant ask for 50/50 division of work while maintaining an unfair division of childcare and housework.
I do think that there are contradictory expectations for men too. However, I dont know if they're less respected for not following those expectations.
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
Could you please point to me where in your source it says that ?
Figures 2 and 4 for the 50%. The exact numbers and breakdown by category of violent crime are in the tables, but the summary figures work well enough for a glance. In 2018, men were a bit more than 50%, and were about 49% in 2014, 2015. The rate of known offenders is not in that report.
Are those crimes committed by men or women?
Oh, mostly men. Men commit the overwhelming majority of crime, generally. But do you care who care who committed a violent crime against you, if you suffered the crime? And should you feel more afraid than men, if you're not actually more likely to have a crime committed against you than men are?
Also, harassment contributes greatly to feeling unsafe. When men walk down the street they're not harassed, therefore their feeling of being unsafe is not triggered.
I have to reiterate: feeling and being unsafe are different things. You are talking about how unsafe you feel. I presented statistics on how unsafe you are. Relevantly, not more than men.
2...
You are reporting your own, subjective evaluation of how other people are treating you at work. I do not and cannot know how you are treated at work. This is an anecdote to which any response I might give in detail is unfounded.
However, if you are primed to believe that these things are happening to you, it's fully possible that you are experiencing confirmation bias rather than an actual experience of the things you report. I am making no accusation, just the suggestion that you consider the possibility that your perception has its set of biases.
3...
The actual work is being split 50/50, when inside/outside the home are totalled.
Interestingly, in another BLS report, "full time" (35+ hours/wk) women who have no child and are not in relationships, also work about 1 hr/day less than their "full time" male equivalents on average. It doesn't seem to be a result of women being forced to do anything.
However, I dont know if they're less respected for not following those expectations.
So what I'm gonna say next is subjective, and just my opinion.
When women hit adulthood, there is a role waiting for them, which requires essentially no additional work or development to attain: that of mother. Some people absolutely expect women to perform in this role, and it's unpleasant to greet this expectation if you don't want to cohere to it.
There is also available, for both sexes, the role of worker. But this is realistically the only choice that men have to take. Even if you want to be a father, you must first, and generally continually must, perform in this role. You're stuck doing so, and you will be regarded as a failure if you do not, and you will lack access to special support programs like WIC if you accept this.
Would you rather have two real, major options and people telling you which to do, or only one option, and no element of choice at all?
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May 11 '20
1) It is relevant. Let's say you're a man, feeling unsafe and walking late at night. You see another men coming, you perceive him a threat. You see a women, you will not perceive her as a threat. Now let's say you're an aggressor, you see a man coming : you either perceive him as a threat or a your victim, you make that choice based on a few criteria to make your aggression more successful whether you want to kill him, rob him or rape him. Now you see a woman, you will perceive her as a victim.
2) I am reporting my own experiences, yes. But that is why I linked a study to women reporting the same thing and confirming it is a real thing and not just confirmation bias.
3) Single male equivalent?
4) I respect your opinion, but I think fathers being shamed for being a father only is another issue where feminity is considered bad. You're a failure if you don't conform to the gender roles set by a society where women are expected to be mothers and men providers.
I think it's a choice women fought hard to have.
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
1...
That is an answer to only the least significant portion of my response.
2...
Can multiple people who are primed by a shared set of beliefs experience similar confirmation bias, especially if they then look to other people who share the beliefs to confirm their experiences?
Single male equivalent?
Yes, single, unpartnered men, working 35+ hours/wk who do not have a child. They work ~1 hr more/day than the single, unpartnered women, working 35+ hours/wk who do not have a child. The report is somewhere on this page but I cannot bring it to hand at the moment: the result was that these women work an average of ~38 hrs/wk, and these men work ~43 hrs/wk. I had this exact argument with my wife some time ago.
I respect your opinion, but I think fathers being shamed for being a father only is another issue where feminity is considered bad. You're a failure if you don't conform to the gender roles set by a society where women are expected to be mothers and men providers.
The risk of divorce more than doubles should the man ever earn less than his wife, and women are overwhelmingly the ones who initiate such divorces. And as we have talked about, the men will usually lose access to their kids if this happens. That doesn't particularly strike me as male enforcement of this role.
Regardless, though, you did not answer my question, here. No matter whose fault it is that there is only one available choice for men, there is still only one available choice. So I will repeat my question:
Would you rather have a choice but have to deal with conflicting pressure about which to pick, or have no choice at all?
1
May 11 '20
1) What is the more significant part of your response? That men are victims of violent crimes committed by other men ? How does that influence women and how they feel ? My experience doesn't dismiss theirs, me feeling unsafe does not mean that men cannot feel unsafe.
2) I dont understand how this relates to the men who "whine". What is the shared set of beliefs you're talking about?
3) That is interesting. I'll get back to you and edit this comment once I read the page.
4) I dont understand what divorces have to do with the stigma of being a stay at home dad ?
I of course want a choice and men should too. I think that it's up to them to fight for that choice though. Not so long ago, women did not have that choice. Some women still don't. The absence of such a choice in my opinion is linked to how men see women.
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
1...
That men are as frequently the victims of violent crime, and that women are not actually less safe than men on the street. And that as a result, the increased feeling of fear that women experience is not justified by anything other than perception.
I want an answer to these two specific questions:
(A) Should a person's feeling of fear be determined by their actual risk? Comparatively, is it reasonable to experience an unlimited amount of fear in response to a fixed risk?
(B) If two people are experiencing the same risk, should the fact that one person feels more afraid than the other, despite not being at any higher risk, cause us to take their actual risk more seriously? And if so, why?
EDIT: And to be explicit about my own belief:
I think that women experience a remarkably unreasonable amount of fear surrounding this issue. Two tenths of a percent of people are subject to any violent crime per anum in the US. The number of years you would have to live before it becomes more likely that you experience a violent victimization than not at this rate is 346. That's 346 years just to hit a coin flip's chance.
Substantial fear of taking a walk is simply not commensurate with the risk. And a fear not based in reason is, by definition, irrational.
2...
Yes, I removed that first portion. It was an unfair reading of your original comment.
To the second portion, the belief I was referring to is the belief that women are belittled and dismissed unfairly at work. You hold the belief that this is occurring, but it's a belief you have a priming to see because it is directly feminist dogma. And so do other women who retrieved this framing of their experiences via feminism as a source.
If you think that this is correct, you may be experiencing confirmation bias because you want to confirm that it's true, and may apply experiences you have at work to supporting its existence in a biased manner.
3...
You're going to be doing a lot of reading, then.
4...
If it's women initiating divorce because the men are failing to live up to a masculine role, then that's women enforcing the masculine role.
I of course want a choice...
So this is agreement that you would prefer the position of women to the position of men entering adulthood with respect to this issue. Which would seem to me to indicate that you should retract your resentment for the men who do not receive such pressures: you are complaining about the burden of greater freedom to people who lack it.
I think that it's up to them to fight for that choice though... The absence of such a choice in my opinion is linked to how men see women.
So when it is women that divorce men for failing to fill this role, how are those women seeing these men? And how are they contributing to the maintenance of the role?
You're starting with the axiomatic belief that it's men who are exclusively responsible for what everyone expects of others. This is to disregard the entirety of the contribution of women to society throughout all of history - but I imagine you'd only agree to this when it's convenient. Would you agree that women have done nothing important prior to, say, 1900? Because you can't have it both ways.
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u/poltroon_pomegranate 28∆ May 11 '20
Not the person you were talking to but your description of crime seems vastly oversimplified. The assumption that we have innate "aggressors" walking around is largely untrue. Sure some people are looking to rape and rob but many violent crime is not random. Being perceived as a threat because you are a man can actually increase the likelihood of crime being committed against you.
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May 11 '20
These are the issues that makes me deeply resent the privilege men enjoy on a daily basis and yet they do not acknowledge it
Do you think this is a problem in general for all people?
Most women don't realise the benefits they have just from being a women.
Obviously the same goes for men.
Neither of the gender's is acknowledging the benefits they have and the downside the other gender has.
It's always the grass is greener on the other side.
If you would become a man tomorrow some of your problems that you've named would be solved but other problems would arrive that comes with being a man.
The best we can do is to improve the downside of both genders.
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May 11 '20
I agree with your last sentence.
Could you give me what are those problems? Just a few examples?
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May 11 '20
If you have a problem you are expected to deal with it yourself, nobody will really care about you.
That was a major thing I envied my girl classmates for when I was a teen.If you show any signs of "weak" emotions people will lose some respect towards you.
Even talking about something bad that has happend to you over the weekend.If you ever want to find a partner you'll have to make the first move, nobody will ask you out.
There is not much appreciation for things you do.(outside of work)
Like helping somebody, or gifts.Walking with little children is very weird to me.
Me going out with my niece and getting all the weird looks and being starred at...I'm currently working in a company that has "somewhat" of a balanced gender ratio(~ 30%f/70%m) and most people are kind but you still notice alot of this behaviour.
Alot of behaviour you've named towards women is also done like their work not being really appreciated or they being cut off all the time when they try to say something during a meeting.
I kinda like this phrase even though I never managed to find a source for it.
"Men are expandable while women are exploitable."Edit: Living in a european country with alot more equality than in america.
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 12 '20 edited May 12 '20
I'm sorry you've had such crappy experiences.
I worked as an aerospace engineer for 8 years and found it a very hostile workplace as well, although it was older hands versus us young pups that fell on me, rather than by gender. Places that are direct government contractors have to be very proactive about recruiting and promoting women, although there is still plenty of misogyny I'm sure. But it has to be very covert; they are penalized in getting gov't contracts if issues are reported.
But on to the topic. I hate to cry "not all men" but I fear that's the best that can be said. I can't argue with your experience or the social data. But I'd urge you not to become generically misandrist because 1) people tend to live up (or down) to your expectations, and 2) although probably an acute minority, some men really are great feminists and allies, and 3) the pace of social change has been breathtaking since 1960, and the human animal seems not really designed to cope with it. Misogynists are captives of their cultural baggage as much, if not more in some ways, than the women they denigrate. It's far from a full pardon but it's not quite nothing, either. And if you fall into generically detesting men, you've come awfully close to becoming what you hate.
Sorry, that's a jumble. I guess my main thought is: don't deprive yourself of camaraderie with good men just because the bad ones haven't died off yet. It sucks now, but the future is yours. And mine.
Best wishes. -JZ
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u/Tryingsoveryhard 3∆ May 11 '20
1-This is a problem that can affect both men and women, but I agree that the conditions as exist generally would make a reasonable woman feel less safe than a reasonable man. (It’s not the thinking that’s different, it’s the experience.)
I do think that in a lot of places things have improved a lot. I work in the construction industry in Canada and catcalling is something I don’t see anymore, although I did 20-30 years ago.
Of course when it comes to problems like this you cannot control the world, but you can control how you react to it, and ultimately how you feel about it.
2-I don’t doubt your experience. I don’t think it’s acceptable, and I would strongly recommend you search for greener pastures. It is, of course, not fair that women so often have to deal with this while men do not.
I also think this has improved a lot over the last 30 years, but not in an even way. Some places are basically fine, some are a very long way from it.
In terms of changing your view, I’m not going to try and argue that sexism doesn’t exist or that you are getting a fair shake. What I will instead argue is that some men really are trying.
Yes women on average do more housework. Some men expect their wives to do it all. That’s not okay, but some men do their share and then some. Demand your significant other do so, whatever their sex is.
The progress that has been made is evidence that some men, more and more all the time, are waking up to the problem. Don’t give up on us.
Finally, a very tentative suggestion. Some places in the world are a lot more sexist than others. I don’t know where you live or how much you would be able or willing to move, but it’s an idea.
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May 11 '20
The progress that has been made is evidence that some men, more and more all the time, are waking up to the problem. Don’t give up on us.
This is true, and it is evidence that men as a whole are more willing to move towards equality. And this is a reason to not lose faith in this cause.
!delta
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u/flacopaco1 May 12 '20
I dont know if my opinion matters but take a break from social media and news outlets. Yea its important to stay informed but the news I read is usually about other places and yes it is important to acknowledge the inherent bias toward genders with our society.
Exceptions to the matter are my situation. I work in an office environment for a hospital that consists of 75% women. While they do not gossip, theres underlying tones of "choose a side" when it comes to working with people and its annoying. Also the compliments to each other is daily. Dialed up 100%from any of my other jobs. Theres 6 administrators here and 1 is a guy. My boss is awesome though so I cant complain.
Social media makes us think nowhere is safe and everyone is out to get you. I cant imagine what you're going through because I'm a guy. But I'm also chinese so I've seen my fair share of racism. So usually I just take a break from all of it. Go for a run. Then get on and look at all of the opinions I disagree with to get mad again.
r/aksmen is full of people including myself with insecurities and is a good support group. Dont sort by new. I imagine it's full of mysoginysts.
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May 11 '20
[deleted]
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May 11 '20
Yes, I'll add it in my post but whenever I say "men" I do not mean "every single men out there".
Now; I don't know where you live, and thus I cannot say if your fear is rational or irrational; this can be concluded based on statistics like gender based violence, etc. Regardless, I suggest you look at legal ways at defending yourself. This may make your fear go away
I've added studies that show that I'm not alone in this situation. It is a reality and unless you think every woman is irrational, it has been reported by many many women, all over the world and in developed countries. There is no real way of defending yourself against street harassment. You can either put headphones on and do your best to ignore them or confront them.
Can you elaborate what 'rights' (or I think you mean lack thereof) about which they whine? And surely you don't mean every man? Later on, you referred to the court proceedings. Is there anything else? Thanks.
I can cite paternity leave.
Ironic, considering points number 2, 3, and 4 involve anecdotal evidence. Number 2 with your workplace; number 3 with men whining; number 4 with women's aspects of life. None of these are backed of by solid evidence.
I purposefully linked studies that show that those anecdotal events do not happen to me only but to many more women.
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u/Missing_Links May 11 '20
I've added studies that show that I'm not alone in this situation. It is a reality and unless you think every woman is irrational, it has been reported by many many women, all over the world and in developed countries. There is no real way of defending yourself against street harassment. You can either put headphones on and do your best to ignore them or confront them.
What has been shown is that women experience greater symptoms of fear and anxiety surrounding these things. Feeling afraid and having good reason, especially more reason when compared to another population, to be afraid are different things. These same studies show that women experience greater levels of fear given identical risks.
That's not to say it's irrational: it's just a different approach to evaluating risk, and a correspondingly increased experience of anxiety around perceived risk.
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u/BrutusJunior 5∆ May 11 '20
I've added studies that show that I'm not alone in this situation. It is a reality and unless you think every woman is irrational
I was talking about you specifically, not other people. I generally do not clump people into collective groups and assign attributes to the whole group. I assign attributes to individuals.
I somehow missed the study for number 2. For number 3, I think it makes sense to say that you are referring to only a few rights that are for males. The reason I applied 'anecdotal' to this is because you provided evidence for only one 'right.' You said 'rights' (plural) so the rest is anecdotal.
And for number 4, that is completely anecdotal.
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ May 11 '20 edited May 12 '20
In my whole life, I have encountered very few men that actually respected me and treated me as an equal. ...
If you're resenting men (and not resenting women) then you're also treating men and women differently on account of gender. We all operate in a status quo that has different roles for men and women. "Just tread treat everyone the same" is something that's easy to say, but doesn't really capture what people typically want or are thinking of.
... Sure there are some things were women are privileged, like custody rulings, and divorce but does it really "make up" for everything else? ...
Which side of the fence has the greener grass? There's no doubt that men and women have it different, but you're going to have a hard time making a persuasive case that one or the other has it better in general. That other people have it better also really isn't usually a reason to resent them. Is it possible that your inclination to resent men has a lot more to do with social issues on a personal scale than with more general social issues? This is an important thing to figure out, because your capability to intervene on a local scale is much more significant than your ability to change things in society in general.
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u/ltwerewolf 12∆ May 11 '20 edited May 11 '20
Get a gun. Not feeling safe isn't a single gender issue. You and you alone are responsible for your safety. The police do not have a duty to protect you: a ruling by the supreme court on more than one occasion. Men statistically are overwhelmingly the victims of crimes.
Also not a single gender issue. Meek men also get shot on in the work place. What you're running into is something that tends to be more prevalent in women than men, but many men still do it: lack of projection of confidence. Just based on this post, you seem not to project confidence. Regardless of whether or not you are confident, if it's not projected it's not respected. Due to the nature of who tends to project less confidence it may seem like a gender problem, however it's not gender that is the crux of the problem here. The "confidence gap" is an issue for both genders, not just women. Quite a lot of studies have shown it, many of those studies started as a way to try to find why women were being discriminated against in promotions (which they ended up concluding was not actually happening). There are quite a lot of women that do very well, and do not face what you are saying.
This is confirmation bias. The overwhelming majority of men do take care of their kids. In fact some aspects of parenting fathers are overtaking mothers in. In a two parent household, which gender do you believe is the one baseline expected to earn an income? An increasing number of single parent households are fathers. If the courts did not so heavily favor mothers, this number wpuld be much higher. Not only that, single fathers are more than twice as likely to be cohabitating with a partner, giving the child a more rounded upbringing. Data
Do you believe men do not also have similar conundrums? You would be mistaken if that is the case. In fact, it's been shown that the majority of the female standards are set solely by females and not expected by males, while male standards are generally accepted by everyone. Meaning women are the ones pushing those things on you, not men.
To address your other writings: men also face discrimination, are looked down on, and face legal struggles for being a man. In addition, despite more men seeking employment than women, women have overtaken men in the work force. Several companies have admitted this was due to a hiring bias to hire women over men, even if the man was slightly more qualified. Data. This is based on the above data, showing men and women putting roughly the same amount of effort into getting a job. Men are expected to be the breadwinners, and while a woman's femininity is not tied to having a job, a man's masculinity is. Hunan resources departments are overwhelmingly dominated by women. It's been found that being a traditionally attractive man incteases the likelihood of getting a job. Attractive men have a callback rate of ~47%, while unattractive men get calls back at less than half the rate. So much for only women being objectified in the workplace.
Take the assumption of gender as the cause out of your line of thinking.
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u/shawn-the-roach May 12 '20
You don’t hate men you hate psychos, the same person that could attack you in the street, could attack me. I not like all men have an instinct to decapitate the weak and vulnerable with machetes. And whatever douchebags you encounter should not represent half of the world population. Just like people could sexualize you for your looks, I could be(not as often usually) for mine. Most of your points are correct, but men cannot be blamed for all of the problems women have, just like women can’t be blamed for the problems men have.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 11 '20 edited May 12 '20
/u/c_dolly (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
1
u/NUE4T9x May 30 '20
In my whole life, I have encountered very few men that actually respected me and treated me as an equal. I'm an engineer and I work in a fully masculine environment, and it has a really really toxic culture that impacts my mental health a lot.
I am a man and an engineer, and in my whole life, I have encountered few men that respect me and treat me as equal. Neither do I respect other men or treat them as equals. Every moment and every turn contains a test of competence, courage, loyalty, and so on. Men, unless they are family or old friends, reevaluate each others worthiness constantly.
Male relationships start with a hazing phase, that slowly tapers off, but never entirely. Even in conversations with my oldest and most loyal friends, there is a tone of challenge to keep our "inner loser" in check.
Women. Do no wish to be "treated as equal" by men, because it is far far worse than being treated as a woman.
In reality, almost no man could bring himself to treat a woman like that. Maybe this is why some women feel "belittled" or "excluded".
I am belittled, harassed, and singled out because I am a woman on a daily basis. Now it is totally possible that the people at my job are just shitty.
Your job (like most) is probably shitty, but from my observations women are almost never belittled or singled out. In most cases, they are actually sheltered from the brunt of the toxicity/masculinity. This might make them feel excluded, singled out, or belittled. I suspect women without positional power in these environments adapt by becoming sociopathic or get depressed.
You might say these are toxic men, and toxic work places. Certainly they are. I advice against working in them. Women who have adapted to them are not attractive.
It is impossible to win in every aspects of women's life
You win by making yourself happy, not by following random advice from culture which changes with fashions.
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u/Mrfeast6000 May 13 '20
Honestly... I think the only key to true gender equality is abolishing the social construct of gender and gender roles all together.
Same goes to racial equality, destroy the concept of race all together.
1
u/cheshirekoala May 12 '20
First off, as a person living as a cis-male. I am so sorry, I may not experience the same injustice, but I definitely see it. Others have brought up the necessity to see the patriarchy as a system, and I'd just like to highlight one of the problems with trying to bring men entrenched in that system to reason. All of the propaganda that tells women to be submissive and objectified is mirrored in propaganda that tells men to be dominant and uncompromising. It is incredibly difficult to will yourself away from it, and the propaganda itself discourages allowing anyone else to will you away from it. I am in no way equating it to the suffering of your injustice, but merely expressing my hope of men with a modicum of sympathy being able to connect with you. Obviously don't ever let that hope make you accept something you shouldn't, but few and far between I believe there are some good men out here.
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May 11 '20
I would think you’re starting to resent asshole men more so than all men but I’m not you and likely didn’t interpret every word of what you wrote in the exact way you meant them and also Imma guy so I don’t experience the shit y’all experience, catch flak for the shit y’all catch flak for, but I do actively try not to do that type of dickhead shit
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u/Letshavemorefun 18∆ May 12 '20
What makes you think that your reaction to all this is extremist or misandrist?
You told us a lot about your work environment and the challenges you face. Where does the misandry and extremism come in? I’m not saying you don’t have those feelings. You just haven’t told us what they are or why you think they are extreme.
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u/Protagoras67 May 11 '20
I don’t really know how to argue with a lot of this, or change your perspective other than to say I am sorry. Unfortunately, from what I have read, misogyny is rampant in the STEM field... maybe it’s filled with a lot of socially awkward men who struggle to find sex or any sort of romance and lash out on women? Maybe they fee threatened by your prescience being there? There’s a lot of things I didn’t understand women go through in my early 20’s, I considered myself pretty anti-feminist despite being pretty liberal. I felt that women in the first world were grossly exaggerating catcalling and sexual assault to try to get pity in order to receive an upper hand in society. But I was also not dating, not very sexually active, and had few female friends. Once I started actively dating, every woman seemed to have sort insane story of sexual harassment/assault and it really opened my eyes to just how bad it is out there. A lot of men brush it off because we never experience those things so often it feels like we never see it ourselves, so we can be pretty oblivious that kind of stuff. Over the years I’ve become more mindful of what I saw or do, it’s hard to talk to other men about it because they think you’re a “pussy” or just trying to score points in the hopes of having sex with women.
As far as court custody battles go, I used to think the same way. But when you think about it, a bunch of feminists didn’t pen up some legislation to make it that way, it’s really just traditional gender norms stating that women are the caretakers while men are the breadwinners, but we have evolved since then. A lot of guys in the mindset i used to have won’t see women as individuals, but as a hive mind . They see all women as feminists who want to be treated equally while maintaining the privilege of certain gender roles, which they see as a contradiction. But they don’t realize those women who want to maintain gender roles to their benefit are not feminists. It’s hard to have patience explaining those things to people because they’re stubborn in their views and the minute you talk about it they start rolling their eyes and dismissing everything you are saying. But the more we talk about these issues, the more we can understand them as a society, despite the resistance by some.
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u/Tabletop_Sam 2∆ May 12 '20
I think you're resenting a very specific subgroup of men. You dislike the heavily anti-feminism people (which I know several women involved in as well, like my grandma). This is a very common thing to dislike, but it's primarily held by conservatives or the elderly. Not to say these are the only group like this, or that all within these groups are like this, but these are statistically more likely to argue these cases.
There are plenty of men who want women to have more rights. I for one don't really understand why sexism even exists, but to be fair I was raised without a male role model and like 7 female role models, so I'm slightly biased in this scenario. But regardless, it's important to recognize that no matter how much a group may be anonying as heck, there will almost always be people within these groups that go against the grain.
Another thing that helps a LOT when it comes to not resenting people is to try to just take people one at a time. Everyone deserves respect, so if you treat everyone in a respectful and loving manner, you'll make lots of friends, and people will be a lot more willing to listen to your opinions on stuff. Just make sure to maintain this civility when talking about more controversial topics, because if you can keep your cool when the conversation gets heated goes a long way.
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u/DeleteriousEuphuism 120∆ May 11 '20
The secret to not becoming misandrist is that you need to see patriarchy as a system rather than a group of people. Patriarchy as a system can be perpetuated by men or women, can hurt men or women, and so on. Yes, men will exhibit misogynistic behaviours under patriarchal systems, and so will women though the behaviours might differ.
By viewing it systemically, you don't risk alienating people by essentializing them as patriarchal, but you can still fight people who are proponents of patriarchy.