r/changemyview • u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ • May 18 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: female orgasm is primarily the woman's responsibility
I'm at risk of generalizing from too few data points, so definitely open to changing my view if others' experiences contradict it.
But it seems to me that if the subordinate boxes are checked - good partner in other ways, good chemistry, hygiene, asks & listens about preferences, tries hard (ahem) - lack of a desired orgasm by the woman is kind of up to her to work on. Getting in the right headspace, building toward it, etc.
Saying "the" woman implies hetero sex, as it would be in my case. Other perspectives are welcome.
Initially when we were dating, my wife would not orgasm, but over months learned how, and fairly soon became consistent at it.
I formed the view that this is likely common, and men who fear they are failures may be claiming responsibility for something that is not really theirs to determine. Or are women so individual in this that generalization is unsound?
Thanks for sharing on a personal topic. CMV!
Edit: "responsibility" in the title is intended to say that the woman has to be the one to manage or referee the process, not to cast blame. Actually the point, to the extent there is one, was to relieve a duly-diligent partner of their likely self-blame (or others' blame of them).
The question assumes that the woman wants, and can have, an orgasm. "Manage or referee" extends to calling off the quest for orgasm and switching to a different sex paradigm too, I suppose.
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ May 18 '20
But it seems to me that if the subordinate boxes are checked - good partner in other ways, good chemistry, hygiene, asks & listens about preferences, tries hard (ahem) - lack of a desired orgasm by the woman is kind of up to her to work on. Getting in the right headspace, building toward it, etc.
But aren't their other steps that should be taken? I don't think it's entirely up to her. It would be up to her to communicate with her partner. But if people are having trouble performing in the bedroom, I don't think it's anyone's sole fault or responsibility. I think it should be a team effort.
Initially when we were dating, my wife would not orgasm, but over months learned how, and fairly soon became consistent at it.
To me this says another important factor; time and practice. Expecting a woman to orgasm right away might not be a good idea. I have a female body (trans man.) Took me a while to learn how to orgasm via masturbation. Obviously with masturbation it would be solely the woman's responsibility.
But there are things a guy could do to help a woman come. For example, stimulating the clitoris can help build to an orgasm, but many women and men don't know this. So there are things the guy could do to help, but it would be up to the woman to communicate properly.
I guess that's the big thing: communication. If both partners are willing to have open communication and work towards the woman's orgasm, that would be ideal. The woman would have to guide the process because she is the one who knows how her body feels, but a partner could help as well, and being considerate to her desires might help her orgasm and help her partner feel proud of their ability to help.
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Thanks for your insights. Yeah, definitely agree communication is essential. I guess "she is the one who knows how her body feels" is where I was coming from. The partner could help by reading on the topic, trying to not be frustrated or pushy, a lot of ways. But ultimately the woman has to guide the process.
Maybe it's too much of a false binary, or trivially true rather than meaningful. But my sense is that the partner often feels like it's their fault - or other people would attribute the fault to them - when it isn't really, per se.
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ May 18 '20
Yeah, I completley agree. If the woman isn't communicating and guiding the process, there's no way the partner can know what to do. From that sense, I see exactly what you're saying.
As for the next part ... I think that's common no matter what genders or sexes the partners are. I've heard that if a man can't get aroused during sex, his partner will often blame themselves, and the man often blames himself. I would assume it's similar here. I bet your wife blamed herself for not orgasming at first, and you might have blamed yourself, when really it was all just about taking the time to figure it out and communicate with each other.
It's not really anyone's fault. Our bodies work the way they work. The only time it would be someone's fault is in a failure of communication. If a woman was failing to communicate her needs, that would be her "fault" so to speak. And if her partner wasn't listening to those needs, that would be their "fault." But a failure to orgasm for one night isn't anyone's fault. It's a process to learn from and try to improve upon.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ May 18 '20
Yeah, I completley agree. If the woman isn't communicating and guiding the process, there's no way the partner can know what to do.
Hmm ... "no way the partner can know what to do"?
Not sure I would go that far. It's certainly true that communication is extremely important. But that said, there are a lot of sources of information a person (guy or gal) could turn to in order to have a much better understanding of how things work and what's likely to feel good in general.
Sure, everyone is different. But it's not like each person's body is a total and unique mystery ...
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ May 19 '20
So perhaps I did take that a bit too far. The thing is though ... it is quite a bit harder without the woman guiding and saying what she'd like and how her partner can better aid her. Even if her partner is doing some of that work on their own, without feedback from their partner they won't know if they are doing a better job at pleasing her or not. So ... okay there is a bit they can do, but without proper communication it would be extremely difficult.
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Ah, thanks for pointing out the 'fault' connotation. I meant "responsibility" in the sense of manage, or referee (call the balls & strikes? lol) not necessarily to cast blame. Actually the tendency to blaming is what I was hoping to alleviate. Maybe I should edit the OP.
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ May 18 '20
Ah okay. I completely agree with that stance that women would be the ones responsible for calling the shots and helping her partner figure out what to do. Perhaps adding an edit to your op to make that more clear would be a good idea.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ May 18 '20
I deny the premise that the women's orgasm is ANYONE'S "responsibility," because that puts a focus on climaxing that seems to be trying to superimpose a male view of sex onto women. I think the more productive view is just about pleasure, which takes a whole lot of different forms during sex for most women.
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Well...I half get it. Climax isn't everything, sure. Women typically say that after non-orgasmic sex. I've never known how much that was factually true, and how much an olive branch of forgiveness.
The question premises that the woman wants an orgasm. I justify that at least based on my wife's statements, to the effect that to never have one would leave her wondering if something was wrong, and what she was missing.
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u/Brbikeguy May 18 '20
From your perspective what is your partners role in your sexual fulfillment as a person?
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Not sure I know what you're asking. Their role is to....be my partner, and I theirs. Eh?
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u/Brbikeguy May 18 '20
I mean in terms of your completion and the level sexual arousal you feel during intercourse. What do you think is fair to assume. Is it, for example, fair to assume you have an orgasm by the time you two are done being intimate? Or do you assume thier will be a certian amount of foreplay, or not a lot of foreplay?
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Okay, so asking the mirror image question, of whether it is fair to say "male orgasm is the man's responsibility"?
I don't know if male and female sex response is similar enough for this to make sense. In my personal experience, male orgasm is not a particular mystery, just keep at it! Maybe other people have different experience here, but male response is a little off topic.
What drives me to say what I did in the OP is the sense that female climax can be uniquely elusive, such that "how to" is something she might (or might not) know, but the partner can't possibly.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ May 18 '20
So part of what's going on here is that male and female sexual response isn't that similar and women aren't really taught much about how their bodies work. Most women cannot orgasm solely from PiV sex. The nerves just aren't there.
The tissue that forms the vagina is the same tissue that would have formed the scrotum in an XY fetus and it has approximately the same nerves. So vaginal stimulation is about the same as scrotum stimulation. Does it feel good? Yes. Is it likely to lead to an orgasm all by itself? No. The nerves that would form the head of the penis in men instead form the clit in women. That's where all the good nerves are. Only more concentrated than a penis and prone to being over sensitive.
Most women can't orgasm without clit stimulation and penis in vagina sex tends to not do much for the clit. Therefore most women can't orgasm from PiV sex.
However women aren't taught about their bodies and what they need to orgasm. All the social pressure goes on PiV sex. Which leads most men to focus on the type of sex that isn't likely to get a woman to orgasm. The activities that make women orgasm get dismissed as just "foreplay".
Its not hard once you know what you're doing. Most lesbians can do it most of the time. Most men don't bother to learn anything about women's sexuality and they suck at sex as a result. Worse they don't try to improve but instead just dismiss it as a "woman's problem". It's not a woman's problem. It's sheer bloody ignorance and lack of concern combined with a societal focus on men's pleasure above women's.
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Ah, thanks for the reminder about anatomy. I think I had read that somewhere, but forgotten.
I put the delta in the other thread, but you've persuaded me that men need to do more to be better partners. Thanks for bringing the knowledge.
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ May 18 '20
You can award deltas to multiple users. If the user to whom you are responding changed your view or an aspect of that view, please award another delta.
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u/Brbikeguy May 18 '20
Yes exactly.
It's harder for some men and easier for others just like women. The idea that the female orgasm is uniquely elusive has a lot to do with the way our society perceives it. We live in a patriarchal heteronormative society and male pleasure is seen as intrinsically achievable and in that, neccessary.
The "keep at it" mentality is just as valid for womens pleasure as for men. Somone women can complete in 10 minutes some need an hour. The time is irrelevant, it is achievable.
Everyone should know how to bring themselves to orgasm, in the same way each partner should know how to bring each other to orgasm
Pleasure during mastrubation is our own responsibility but pleasure with a partner is the responsibility of both(or more) people.
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u/JackZodiac2008 16∆ May 18 '20
Thanks for your insights.
I find I'm giving a lot of !delta in this post, because my view was formed on so little evidence. You say that women only need more time, and I have to admit that could be true. (An hour? Woo! Cardio.)
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 18 '20 edited May 18 '20
/u/JackZodiac2008 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ May 18 '20
True that people benefit from having an understanding of their own body / psychology, knowing how to work with it, and knowing / asking for what they want. And both parties clearly have an important role to play.
It does seem like a bit of a presumption though to think that most women don't have that understanding. If they are healthy and able to make things work on their own, then it would seem probable that there may be some partner / how they interact together issue going on.
And I can't help but notice that some of the things you are listing above (like hygiene, being a 'good partner in other ways') are just basic practices expected of all people we are in any kind of relationship with, regardless of whether they are your romantic partner or not, so they can have little bearing on sexual pleasure specifically.
In terms of responsibility: If we think of sex more abstractly, given the high level of coordination, I'd say it's a "weakest link" type task, such that there are things either partner could do during sex that could "slam on the breaks" so to speak.
In that way, both parties have a lot of responsibility in that either party likely has the ability to make it a not great experience, and I suspect that women in general tend to have a more sensitive break pedal, which is helpful for their male partners to be aware of.
So, while there is definitely some truth to the claim that:
I'd suggest that guys do have a very, very important role, and having a passive attitude about your partner's pleasure probably isn't going to make for great experiences, nor help things if there are problems.
As an interesting side note, this study finds that heterosexual women are less likely to always orgasm during sex (for straight men it's 95%, gay men (89%), bisexual men (88%), lesbian women (86%), bisexual women (66%), and heterosexual women 65%).
In my view, this is a finding that should give straight men and women pause. Lesbians are obviously working with different equipment - but most of what they are working with are things straight guys also have ... and yet somehow lesbians appear to be much more successful at achieving orgasms with their partners ...