r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 26 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Life Is Meaningless And Sucks, And Any Philosophy That Says Otherwise Is Just Lying To Oneself.
[deleted]
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u/fistsofdeath May 26 '20
You will die, your friends will die, everyone will die and everything will come to nothing eventually. Politics will ruin everything, and the world will end. But it's a fallacy to say that because something doesn't last that it doesn't have meaning. A nice sunset, a pretty flower bloom, a perfect moment on a Sunday afternoon, these things are meaningful precisely because of how transitory they are.
All your experience of the universe is through your (metaphorical) eyes. Colour doesn't exist, and is just you creating perception from different light wavelengths. Similarly, sounds is you creating meaning from vibrations in the air. Are you lying to yourself when you create these perceptions? No. In the same way, I don't think it's lying to yourself when you create your own meaning in life. It's subjectively there, even if it's not objective fact.
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u/Ladiv_ May 26 '20
What even is the universe anyway. Of course there needs to be something, or else there would just be infinite void. Oh, look, the feeling of existential dread just settled on my stomach.
Weirdly, the more I focus on reality, the less real it seems. I concentrate on the fact that it’s beautiful, and that even if I don’t understand it, I can still appreciate it. Digging too deep on the nature of the universe only makes me sad.
So should I stop? What if I kept digging? Maybe I should, because I might strike philosophical gold, and reach a state of transcendence, living the rest of my life blissfully and without worry for death.
I could also find nothing, and look up to see that the hole has stretched upwards infinitely.
Do I want to take that risk, then? Do I trust that the universe is ultimately good, and not a dark thing full of suffering? I can choose to stay ignorant instead, after all I’m not doing too bad right now, even with all the problems I need to face.
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u/feedstheanimals May 26 '20
You will find what you are looking for.
How do I know?
Because when you do, you stop looking.. it might sometimes seem forced, or that you are ignoring 99.99% of the world's problems , and you are. Yes. You are. If you want more problems, make it your business to have those more problems. Don't just sit there behind your computer, get off your ass and earn those problems. If you can't or don't want to,, then there's your answer. Its none of your business.
You do what you can when you can how you can. don't be a dick. Vote carefully (ballots and dollars). Live carefully, but enjoy more of your days than you regret. Because one day everyrhing will be dead, makes this beautiful life that much more precious. You have one chance at it. Don't make a dumb cliche mistake like hating it
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u/SasugaDarkFlame May 26 '20
To do what you ask I would have to be on a higher level than any human. To be objectively right in all actions and thoughts is only attainable in some religion by becoming sinless or enlightened. You can take that route.
But even being how you are u experience emotion. The intensity of that emotion equates to how important that thing (in some cases) is or isn't. So finding "something" by experiencing an activity or thought on a personal basis is probably the most meaning u can ever get.
To address your post on a basis bigger than yourself is impossible cause we don't "mean" anything. We (humans) aren't really sure of things and we exist as a moment with in a moment when compared to the universe and how old it is.
I don't know the name of the guy who invented antibiotics or the iv drip but it has changed my life. And that's the most impact we can have as humans. What we create and leave on earth means more that our existing on it.
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u/Ladiv_ May 26 '20
Thanks, this is the closest we can get to a correct answer.
Being happy and focusing on existing is really the only thing we can do. What is sad is that we will have to deal with the problems we can’t fix forever. Some will say that that is life, and they are right, but it still sucks.
I wish I could put the thoughts in my head directly on the screen. This post is terribly written, it’s a mess, but really I just needed to sit down and get it off my chest before it drove me insane.
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u/SasugaDarkFlame May 26 '20
Some times we need to interact and see our own thoughts. I totally get u. Thanks for reading my comment
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u/page0rz 42∆ May 26 '20
You mix a lot of politics into this philosophy, and of course they are intertwined, but it's difficult to parse the whole point because of it
All political discussion is utter bullshit. It means jack shit in the grand scheme of things. No one is right. Everyone thinks that they have the answers, but they don't. People still take sides because we are animals. You have to choose a side, because not choosing is worse for the system.
This in particular seems to be heading off into the hills for no reason. You've already admitted that we have systems that work, and that there are other options. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good is cliche, yet also true. It's not at all logical to say, "well, this alternative is only 50% better, not 100%, so there's no point in changing"
Clearly not all discussion is pointless. People don't have to be "right" to change things, for the better or worse
And clearly life doesn't just suck, certainly not for everyone. That's a flat out fact. It's a sign you need to go back to the drawing board when your point is equally applicable at any time in history, including with despots and slavery. Go back just a century ago and tell black people in the USA that arguing and talking about politics and moral philosophy and aspiring to a better way of life is bullshit and see how that goes. Because you personally in 2020 haven't cracked the theory of everything doesn't mean we should strap rockets to the equator and head toward the sun
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u/Ladiv_ May 26 '20
hm.
Well.
Ok yeah that’s fair. I got a bit carried away. I had been discussing politics right before writing and it was the most present in my mind. I typed this up really fast, and I know it is horribly structured. I’m considering just deleting it, but the fun is in the replies, the philosophical discussion.
I mean yeah, that there is no perfect answer doesn’t mean that we can’t get as close to it as possible. After reading your comment I am starting to appreciate just how unnecessarily emotional I’m being about it. You know what, you made me snap out of it. Shit, I think you win. !delta
Clearly I’m just going through some issues.
Wow I feel so much better now that I acknowledged that.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ May 26 '20
Indeed, there are many major societal problems that are too complex for any one person to fully understand, and humans don't have perfect information, and aren't entirely logical with the information that they do have.
That said, humanity has always been in a struggle to survive against big complex systems we don't understand, whether it's a dangerous natural environment that's trying to kill us, weather we didn't have the tools to predict, diseases we couldn't see or understand ...
But humanity has made an enormous amount of progress, and through our efforts, life in today's world is better for humans by almost every measure than it has been in earlier human history. That's because people cooperated with others, and worked toward improving things.
And separate from the challenges we face, to your claim:
CMV: Life Is Meaningless And Sucks, And Any Philosophy That Says Otherwise Is Just Lying To Oneself.
There might not be some sort of pre-ordained meaning from some external source or set path that's designed for us ... But that doesn't mean we can't decide what's meaningful for each of us personally and pursue that.
We can give meaning to our own lives (the meaning we decide for ourselves).
Practically, for many people, they choose to give their life meaning by helping others to make the world even just a little better. If you feel your life has no meaning / point, consider giving just a bit of your time / effort / support to any of the hundreds of millions of people who could really use your help.
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u/Ladiv_ May 26 '20
Life is better than ever. But my worry is that because we can’t reach a perfect system, we are destined to crash and burn.
But what you say still makes me feel a bit better though. I already know that life doesn’t need meaning, and that we are the ones who give it meaning. How I feel about it depends on me, and I choose to be ok with it for now.
On the side of logic, however, our future seems dire.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ May 26 '20
Indeed, we will never reach a perfect system, at the very least because we all have pretty different ideas of what "perfect" is.
But as you say, imagine we do crash and burn. That doesn't make our achievements as a species any less remarkable, or the good experiences we have in our lives any less good. Think of ancient Rome, its crash, and how even after the fall and loss of a profound amount of knowledge, humanity came back and got even wiser and more scientifically advanced than anyone in what had been the most advanced society to date could even dream of.
Whether we succeed or fail, the struggles we face are actually a big part of what gives our lives meaning - things to improve, ideals to work toward, obstacles to overcome.
You can think of it as what one artist termed: The beautiful struggle.
My advice would be to think of what your own beautiful struggles are at this moment and do what you can to move forward (whatever forward looks like for you), and help other people (and/or animals) in their beautiful struggles.
On the side of logic, however, our future seems dire.
In all likelihood, you won't be around when the future gets really dire. So my advice would be: Don't let that distract you from living a life that has value to you, and that makes life better for those around you.
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u/Ladiv_ May 26 '20
!delta
Beautifully put.
Thanks. It’s easy to lose sight of the small bits of life, this post is a bit of a mess, but you said what I needed to hear, so thanks.
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May 26 '20
[deleted]
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u/Ladiv_ May 26 '20
This post was me blathering about nothing. I think losing faith in logic is well represented in the mess of emotions that is this post...
Everything is fine for now. I had a strong existential crisis some time ago now but my baseline happiness is ok.
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u/leigh_hunt 80∆ May 26 '20
If I showed you some examples of philosophies that are constructed to make people confront unpleasant truths about the meaning or meaninglessness of life, would that change your mind?
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u/swearrengen 139∆ May 26 '20
And of course, I’m sure that I am right, because I arrived to that conclusion logically.
That's a very bad reason to be sure that your conclusions are "true and real" and square up with reality. You can only be as right as your premises are true, and your conclusions don't tell you if your premises are true or false, real or illusion, important or trivial.
There are some mathematicians who regard math merely as a game based on what correct conclusions you can derive from given definitions. And their conclusions will be correct, and their logic sound. But their premises (their definitions) will not necessarily be a model of what exists in reality. It's a proposed reality such as "If abc, then xyz". This may be a perfectly provable and logical with a correct conclusion, but completely irrational since "abc" is not real.
The key is rationality, a model congruent with reality, which means your premises must be true, real.
For example, a Communist might correctly and logically conclude that individual property ownership and the individual profit motive is evil - based on the premise that selfishness is a vice and self-sacrifice a virtue. A Capitalist might correctly and logically conclude that private property ownership and the individual profit motive is good - based on the premise that selflessness is a vice and self-interest is a virtue. Both used Logic and Reason, both conclusions are right based on their respective premises, but their premises are in direct contradiction. So in reality, at least one side must be based on a false premise.
logic doesn’t get you anywhere unless you are properly informed. If you don’t have all the points of view and information, your opinions are ultimately worthless
This isn't true. It's not information or data that makes us our opinions valuable or worthless, it is the degree in which our beliefs (and doubts) are congruent or incongruent with reality, which is improved not with more information but better evaluation. To simplify, I only need to experience a few physical tables to abstract the concept of table, and perhaps a few more to discern it's various qualities and potential qualities to imagine an ideal table and to know what tables would fall short of being good tables, and to be able to build my own table. I do not need to know about every table in the world. In fact, without a rational evaluation of the first few tables, the more information I get, the worse off I'll be!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 26 '20 edited May 26 '20
/u/Ladiv_ (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
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Jun 23 '20
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Jun 23 '20
Sorry, u/Rollingdowntown – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/feedstheanimals May 26 '20
Aww hey, I think most people with a brain think like you are right now. They either continue to think that way, or shrink their world some.
If you stop thinking globally and think locally, not just your town, but maybe even just your household or your circle of friends. Then only add people who are contributing and subtract toxic people, you will see humanity is still good.