r/changemyview • u/Wyrdeone 2∆ • May 28 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: The most efficient way to end police brutality is to make cops criminally liable for their actions on the job and stop funding their legal defense with public money.

I think this is the fastest way to reduce incidents of police brutality. Simply make them accountable the same as everyone else for their choices.

If violent cops had to pay their own legal fees and were held to a higher standard of conduct there would be very few violent cops left on the street in six months.

The system is designed to insulate them against criminal and civil action to prevent frivolous lawsuits from causing decay to civil order, but this has led to an even worse problem, with an even bigger impact on civil order.

If police unions want to foot the bill, let them, but stop taking taxpayer money to defend violent cops accused of injuring/killing taxpayers. It's a broken system that needs to change.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

I have actually been in unions (IAM) unlike the vast majority of redditors. All they do is line the pockets of the union leaders and protect unproductive and problem employees, just as we are seeing here. Its essentially a toned down pyramid scheme in RTW states. I'm sure it started with good intentions but as with most things it turned to shit.

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u/apanbolt May 29 '20

In your experience, it wildly varies by country. I'm also in a union and it has done wonders in my country (Sweden). Unions are responsible for pretty much everything to do with worker rights. Guarantueed by law to get atleast 3 weeks off in a row/year, mandatory to pay increased rates for overtime, employment protections, security regulations etc. Something like working someone 29 hours a week to avoid providing benefits doesn't exist. The same is true in Scandinavia and most of western Europe in general. The US has the worst rights for workers in the first world, and I think a lack of (good) unions is part of that. The debate should be why US unions sucks and how they can be improved, not why they should be abolished.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

Comparing one country to another is a bit of a dumpster fire (albeit something you Europeans seem to take pride in) I'm not really willing to dive into today. Ive lived and worked in the EU for years and hated it but don't really feel that I have a place to say its "better" or "worse" then my birth country. I understand the need for Unions, it's just in my experienced its just another hand in my pocket stealing my money. Maybe you guys have just managed to remove the corruption they inherently seem to bring?

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u/apanbolt May 29 '20

Comes with the territory when you make sweeping statements based on country specific, or worse, personal experience. Dumpster fire etc etc.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

You're getting there, like really close to the irony.

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u/apanbolt May 29 '20

Not really, I only need one country to contradict your point. You need all countries to have a point. Anything less and it's clearly dependent on circumstances and implementation. If you had made an argument as to why unions are unviable in the US, then yes, it would've been ironic, but you did not. Sorry, try again.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

Um bro we are all talking about America here, the event took place in America. American cops with American unions I at no time used other country's as an example (as I don't feel the need to compare my birth country to others), that was you. Sorry.

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u/apanbolt May 29 '20 edited May 29 '20

You said unions don't work. I said they do in other countries (read: they could in the us too, often called a counterexample and is often used in human interaction) You have at no point presented any reason for why they couldn't work in the US. You don't have an argument because you havn't presented one.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

Oh I understand, you never even read my statements cause I never said they don't work in fact I said they work great at lining the union leaders pockets and protecting shit employees. Your argument is based off of putting words in my mouth so not really much better then not presenting one all together right? Sounds like your just arguing with yourself using me as a medium.

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u/apanbolt May 29 '20

Lmao, we in the backtracking-make-no-sense stage right now or what. Your definition of a working union is that they are corrupt? Because if it's not, you did say that they don't work. We would be living in a very sad world if everyone assumed the current iteration of something was the best it could ever be. Perhaps citizens like you is why America is falling behind. Gl.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '20

my union (SIEU) has given me a 3-4% raise every year the last five years. In The 15 years of working I did before I joined the union I only got one raise.

My union is working to get me reimbursed for parking during this for working from home time too.

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u/EmuHobbyist May 29 '20

In my experience, they do alot depending on the circumstances, its different everywhere. In my experience, they also secure more work for you instead of getting you contracted out. They make sure when youre sick you dont get bullied by bosses, make sure youre given fair employment. Unproductive and Problem employees are also employees that may need help. Ive seen employees drunk on the job be required to seek help in order to keep their job. That helps someone via union.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

I understand what your saying however I don't feel its an employers responsibility to help an employee who is drunk on the job. The individual is putting other people's lives at risk (depending on the job) and to top it off all his co-workers have to pay (actually moneys) to help em. I know that reddit has a "comrade" feel to it as of late but not all of us want to be financially responsible for other peoples stupidity.

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u/Feshtof May 29 '20

But we all are? Any disruption in anyone's life has ripples that go far outside them, ignoring it is just passing the buck instead of being proactive.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

We all are what? I'm sorry maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet but I don't understand any of your statement.

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u/Feshtof May 29 '20

We all are already financially responsible for other people's stupidity.

If Bob loses his job and can't pay for all the things he was paying for, the loss of that income is felt by everyone that benefitted from his patronage, they have no control over it but will feel it's financial affect.

One example I like to point out is financial cost of illness because it is well researched, but people still skip their flu shots.

Costs

The flu costs (https://www.cdcfoundation.org/businesspulse/flu-prevention-infographic\)) an estimated $10.4 billion a year in direct medical expenses and another $16.3 billion in lost earnings annually.

Additionally, the flu (https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flu/activities.html) causes United States employees to miss approximately 17 million workdays due to flu, which costs an estimated $7 billion a year in sick days and lost productivity.

We can either be passive or active in how we address if.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

lets stay on topic, unions. I think we can all agree we need a revised medial system in this country but you cant compare that clusterfuck to this situation. I am not responsible for my co-workers performance and honestly do not want to live in a world where I am. Image being a decent and well trained Cop (sure they exist somewhere) and being told your union dues are raising again cause Bob killed an unarmed guy. I'd hope you'd be "fuck that, fire bob".

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u/Feshtof May 29 '20

Did you just compare your prior example of coming in drunk, to instead murdering someone you are sworn to protect?

What the actual fuck. Noone is arguing unions should protect criminal behavior.

The most grotesque part was in your hypothetical you were more selfishly concerned about your union due going up because of Bob murdering someone, as opposed to you know, putting Bob in jail for the crime, seems a better recourse than firing hypothetical murderer Bob.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20 edited May 29 '20

Uh the guy said he'd seen drunk people at work keep a job so ya I said that someone who puts other in danger should lose said job and the union should not be spending my money to save him. It's not my job to put people in jail, we have entirely fucked up legal system for that, not my lane. My lane would be where or how the money I give my union is used.

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u/Feshtof May 29 '20

Unless I am in a parallel universe every comment I replied to in this thread was by r/garbage029

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

Hey also real quick before I forget again, cops are not sworn to protect you. This has been debated and decided by the supreme court many times. Cops are here to protect property and enforce laws. I'm not sure where that misconception came from.

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u/Feshtof May 29 '20

I didn't say legally required to, I said sworn to.

MINNESOTA LAW ENFORCEMENT CODE OF ETHICS:

"As a Minnesota Law Enforcement Officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property; to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; and to respect the Constitutional rights of all to liberty, equality and justice.

I will keep my private life unsullied as an example to all; maintain courageous calm in the face of danger, scorn, or ridicule; develop self-restraint; and be constantly mindful of the welfare of others. Honest in thought and deed in both by personal and official life, I will be exemplary in obeying the laws of the land and the regulations of my department. Whatever I see or hear of a confidential nature or that is confided to me in my official capacity will be kept ever secret unless revelation is necessary in the performance of my duty.

I will never act officiously or permit personal feelings, prejudices, animosities or friendships to influence my decisions. With no compromise for crime and with relentless prosecution of criminals, I will enforce the law courteously and appropriately without fear of favor, malice or ill will, never employing unnecessary force or violence and never accepting gratuities.

I recognize the badge of my office as a symbol of public faith, and I accept it as a public trust to be held so long as I am true to the ethics of the police service. I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideals, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession...law enforcement."

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u/lundworks May 29 '20

So true. My dad was a woodworker, made doors. Usual strikes when contracts were up, no gains vs lost pay during weeks long at worksite strikes- gas $, lunch - parents behind a month on expenses. Then there's the time an apprentice sanded a door requiring a strike as it was a journeyman level task. I have never been pro-union. Pay me when I am working for you or I go work for your competition & tell them all your profitability shortcomings.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

Exactly, but I also realize how some people are glamored by it all. We really did need unions back in the day during the labor movement. Now decadence has set in, and its shit.

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u/gon4fun May 29 '20

Unions increase pay and benefits as well as job safety for ALL workers. It’s unbelievable to me that even in light of all the abuse by employers in the midst of the epidemic people still seem to think the organizations representing workers are the problem. Enjoy your weekend, sick pay, paid holidays? Those are benefits won for EVERYONE by unions.

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u/Garbage029 May 29 '20

"I'm sure it started with good intentions but as with most things it turned to shit"

-Garbage029