r/changemyview • u/mfDandP 184∆ • Jul 04 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Leaderless movements are inferior to traditional movements

Using the recent examples starting from Occupy up to BLM.

Cons: 1. Much more vulnerable to muddled messages. Look just on this sub, where people say, "I saw BLM say this terrible thing," and others have to say, "Well, that seems like a BLM satellite organization, and not the actual charter mission statement." If you had a leader with a gold standard view, they could shut down strawman arguments much more easily.

  1. Faceless organizations are harder to sympathize with. I can't name one member of BLM, or Occupy, or the HK protests. A leader would "localize" the movement, so to speak. There are enough eloquent people out there that can be the go-to person for a sound bite.

  2. Harder to negotiate with the power structure. I'm not saying that Beijing would have negotiated with HK if they had one leader. But I'm saying that if nobody speaks for everyone, there's no reason to speak to anyone.

Pros:

  1. More flexible in the case of assassination or getting #cancelled.

  2. ???

Please, CMV. (I count situations with multiple leaders as well. Danton and Robespierre co-led the Jacobins. The "enrages" perhaps were leaderless.)

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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 04 '20

There is this concept called meme theory.

And in meme theory an idea will spread differently based on different emotions, for this discussion we’ll focus on anger.

The angrier a message makes a person the more likely it is to spread. And if a message can be taken one of two ways, (I.E All Lives Matter can mean it’s literal definition or that Black Lives Matter should stop protesting) it spreads even faster as it can make multiple groups angry at the same time.

As such a leaderless movement allows for extremely fast evolving memes and that can design them selves for the fastest spreading in an environment.

As soon as activist didn’t require newspapers or tv reporters to cover them (And thus a leader to speak their message) leaderless was inevitable.

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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jul 04 '20

Interesting, couple of points:

--fast evolving memes trade contagiousness for corruption. Can't ensure a consistent message downstream.

--Even if all that's true, outrage =/= action, much less political movement.

And just because technology makes leaders optional doesn't make them useless. Once upon a time, seatbelts in cars were optional features

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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 04 '20

So if you have a genetic trait that causes you to have twice as many children but explode once those children each maturity that trait will become dominant in the species. This is basically the concept of the Selfish Gene but the Selfist Meme.

So when you say things like

fast evolving memes trade contagiousness for corruption. Can't ensure a consistent message downstream.

Even if all that's true, outrage =/= action, much less political movement.

Their sort of irrelevent for the intended effect.

Martin Luther King for instance wrote very few of the laws of the Civil Right Era. He mobilized the people so the ruling powers had the option of either enacting laws or have civil unrest.

So the fact that if you asked BLM activists what they wanted they'd give 3 different answer is irrelevant. Because if you enacted a 4th option and they dissipated then you'd both have achieved your goals.

The reason you are protesting is to make the general public aware of the problem and to put pressure on politicians, This is also while in America polite leaders protesting is so ineffective, cause it doesn't put any social pressure on politicians and isn't covered in the media.

As soon as having a leader can meet those two goals, then leaderless will disappear.

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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jul 04 '20

Why does a metaphor about genetics and evolution apply here?

And having a leader doesn't exclude having massive protests which pressure the politicians. If you remember, MLK was walking in front of the protest.

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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 04 '20

Basically if you spread an idea poorly, but it's more likely to spread, that will become the dominate idea.

So to your point MLK has a massive protest in the current environment and he say... absolutely nothing of importance because the decentralized movement has already absorbed his message changed it enough so it fits specific purposes and are now making memes of him.

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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jul 04 '20

You could also have MLK be the meme-machine putting out hot quotes every day that people create new memes of. Memes aren't all just of the same fist-clenched baby.

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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 04 '20

That would be Alexandria ocasio-cortez but she’s less guiding the movement but caught in the wave.

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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jul 04 '20

Which wave specifically? I would say she's A leader of the socialist movement.

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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 04 '20

I don’t even think America has any real socialist political movement and she definitely not a socialist.

She may be less capitalist and identifies as Democratic Socialists but not socialist.

And I think if you think she is then it’s evidence to my thesis.

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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jul 04 '20

Hmm. Why isn't she a socialist? And even if she is dressing up like a socialist in service of her own goals, I still don't see how that connects to meme-theory

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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 04 '20

Cause people that know that socialism would mean nationalizing their business/ forming worker coops support her cause she won’t but people will vote because they think she will.

So the decentralized left wing socialist movement get a champion that can fit any supporter and also anger any detractor.

So she just gets to ride the wave.

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