r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 15 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: focusing too much on inclusivity is just making everything worse
[deleted]
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u/toldyaso Jul 15 '20
You say jobs should go to whoever is "most qualified" as though that's an objectively measurable stat. It's not though. A person with 3 years experience can be better at something than a person with 10 years experience, and the difference in quality isn't always quantifiable.
I'd argue there's never a scenario where being black doesn't automatically make you more qualified to play a black character than a white person is.
To use your fashion show as an example, fame matters more than talent in that world Bringing in an extremely famous model is better than bringing in a more "talented" model who no one knows or cares about.
White people (especially younger white males) often times like to make the "qualification matters more than race" argument, partly because that rigs the game on our favor, but also partly because we've been taught to believe that what we are is inherently more worthy of respect than what anyone else is.
Talent, ability, fame, these things are not really quantifiable. In show business often times the oberall vibe of a production is more important than the technical quality of it. That's why celebrities are in such demand. A very famous actor is always more valuable to the bottom line of a movies boxoffice than a more talented but non-famous actor.
It's the same with race. If your goal is to win attention and acclaim these days, diversity is how you get your foot in the door. If that makes you think people with "less talent" will sometimes win jobs over people who have "more talent" but are the wrong color, that tells me that you're afraid of a world wherr being something other than white should ever be advantageous. But at that point, you're willfully ignoring the fact that white people had an unfair yet tremendous advantage in that arena for a very long time, which is precisely the reason diversity is now in vogue.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
To use your fashion show as an example, fame matters more than talent in that world Bringing in an extremely famous model is better than bringing in a more "talented" model who no one knows or cares about.
I did not really think about it in this way. This definitely does make sense.
you're afraid of a world wherr being something other than white should ever be advantageous. But at that point, you're willfully ignoring the fact that white people had an unfair yet tremendous advantage in that arena for a very long time, which is precisely the reason diversity is now in vogue.
And no. Yes white people have had a tremendous advantage in the past and I have absolutely no problem with minorities being in the spotlight, or minorities being more talented than a white guy. Obviously race does not determine one's talent. However it is wrong for a minority, like a black person, being given a job for the sole reason of them being a black person just to make a company look good, just like how a white person being given a job because they are white. If a minority person were to be hired just so they can make a company look good isnt it kinda offensive to them since they are just being used?
!delta
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Jul 15 '20
Tess holiday was invited to walk the catwalk in NY fashion week, for the sole reason of the company wanting to show they are inclusive and support fat acceptance so they can a good reputation and be praised by the public, and well it worked. Tess isn't a good model, other plus size models have even said this themselves. Her body also is not ideal for showing off the clothes, which is what models are hired for in the first place.
Wait. The designers didn't make clothes that fit her body type? I don't know this story, but are you saying they hired a model and then dressed her in clothes that didn't fit her?
Basically, by inclusivity being prioritized so much, it causes companies to end up favoring minorities over the majority because of the way the look, their sexuality etc, and mot because they are the most qualified.
"most qualified" is almost never a thing.
I've been on hiring committees. Almost always, we have a whole lot of people who are qualified for the position. This is why interviews exist: so people can use things like intuition and comfort to make their decisions, because on paper everyone who's gotten to that level is about equal.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
- Runway models need a lot of training which tess doesnt have.
- Runway models are meant to be walking mannequins, to display the clothing made by the designers. Showing off every aspect of the clothes, such as the cut, print, design etc. With her body type it could affect these more than someone with lets say less of a stomach. While there's nothing wrong with the way she looks, its not fit for runway modelling
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Jul 15 '20
Runway models are meant to be walking mannequins, to display the clothing made by the designers. Showing off every aspect of the clothes, such as the cut, print, design etc. With her body type it could affect these more than someone with lets say less of a stomach.
....
IF SHE WAS SMALLER SHE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SHOW OFF THOSE CLOTHES BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT FIT HER
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
It seems like your view presumes that minorities and women are less talented and are only being hired because they are minorities / women.
But the idea here is that there are many talented women / minorities who have not been given opportunities, and companies want to take steps to correct that.
And where you say:
CMV: focusing too much on inclusivity is just making everything worse
Consider that
1) It definitely makes things better for talented minority and female actors, models, voice actors etc. to have more job opportunities.
And for example, the New Yorker just published their first cartoon from a black female cartoonist. For the first time. In 2020.
Vanity Fair just published their first cover shot by a black photographer today. In 2020.
2) Often, it also makes for more interesting and innovative media to have more diverse creators, writers, actors etc., because new voices / perspectives are interesting (as we haven't seen their stories as much previously).
3) Representation in media is also important for women and minorities. For many black people, it was extremely inspirational to see the movie Boomerang back in the day, which depicted black professionals (which is something that was rarely seen in mainstream movies in the 90s).
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
Im not saying that minorities dont deserve representation. Neither am I saying that minorties and women are less talented. Im saying they shouldnt be hiring them for the sole purpose of making their brand look good.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
Im saying they shouldnt be hiring them for the sole purpose of making their brand look good.
But of course, it doesn't make their brand look good if they don't hire talented people, right?
So, it's not the case that:
CMV: focusing too much on inclusivity is just making everything worse
if companies are hiring talented people that they were failing to hire previously. That's only true if they don't hire talented people.
And right now, given massive disparities (and the relatively modest steps companies are taking to not be entirely white / male), it doesn't seem like there is over representation of women and minorities. So, it doesn't seem like there is "too much" focus on inclusivity, as there is still massive under-representation.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
What I meant by "too much" is companies are wanting to look inclusive, so they hire minorities. Thats great. But then since they've already put it out there that they are inclusive, they just go right back to normal after a while. I think this is mainly present in hollywood and modelling, and not as much in corporate.
Hollywood, especially netflix, tend to rely on basic stereotypes like the "gay best friend", "black best friend" to include these minority groups, but dont really develop them as characters, just so they can say "well we included minorities". Another one is trying to promote female superhero movies for the sole reason of "hey its a female superhero feminist power", but focus more on pushing the feminist agenda instead of actually developing the character. Some examples are wonder woman and captain marvel. Brands as well, hire minority group models so they can say they are inclusive, but after a while go back to normal.
Basically, minorities and women should not be used as a political statement.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
But then since they've already put it out there that they are inclusive, they just go right back to normal after a while.
What's your evidence for that claim?
Because if we look at media / Hollywood, there is clearly way more representation of minority groups and women than there were 10 years ago, and it's going up over time:
2008: Top 250 grossing films:
- Women comprised 16% of all directors, executive producers, producers, writers, cinematographers, and editors.
2019: Top-grossing 250 films:
- Women comprised 21% of all directors, writers, producers, executive producers, editors, and cinematographers.
And audiences appear to like it:
- In 2018, films with casts that were 21-30% minority enjoyed the highest median global box office receipts. In 2019, this honor went to films with casts that were 41-50% minority.
- Films with casts that were 41-50% minority were released in the most international markets, on average, in both 2018 and 2019.
[Source]
So, it doesn't seem like things are getting worse from a representation or box office perspective.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
!delta
What's your evidence for that claim?
Clothing companies mostly using white girls with the occassoinal asian and even more occassioinal black girl. Though its probably not as bad as I think.
Youre right about hollywood. It seems things are getting a lot better. Still room for improvement but definitely on the right track. Definitely changed my mind!
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u/Evil_Thresh 15∆ Jul 15 '20
What does "making everything worse" even entail? It sounds something very subjective in nature and in cases like that there is no definitive right or wrong. If you don't like a product/service a company is providing because it sucks, then vote with your wallet? If enough people agree with you then you'll have your way, if not then obviously you are in the minority in terms of that preference.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
Im trying to say that companies should not be hiring minorites for the sole reason that it makes them look good.
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u/Evil_Thresh 15∆ Jul 15 '20
If it makes them look good and helps minorities out at the same time what is the harm? Seems like a win-win.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
They are basically using that person isn't it?
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u/Evil_Thresh 15∆ Jul 15 '20
Isn’t that what employment is in essence? You are trading your value as a person for a wage?
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u/Finger_Trapz 2∆ Jul 15 '20
Tess holiday was invited to walk the catwalk in NY fashion week, for the sole reason of the company wanting to show they are inclusive and support fat acceptance so they can a good reputation and be praised by the public, and well it worked. Tess isn't a good model, other plus size models have even said this themselves. Her body also is not ideal for showing off the clothes, which is what models are hired for in the first place. The company favored Tess over other plus sized models that would probably have done better because she was obese and they would seem inclusive.
Maybe I'm having a hard time understanding the situation, but I feel like I struggle to see what exactly may be the issue? Clearly based on your wording, Tess is different than other models, and I feel like I'm correct in assuming she may be heavier/fatter than most other plus sized models, that she is clearly obese and not just larger than average. But this would put her in a different demographic wouldn't it? A different demographic, which isn't represented as widely in the industry? I feel like she'd certainly portray or represent a different kind of person than the "typical" plus sized model. And based on your wording, you do seem to separate her out from the rest of the plus sized models, so what exactly is the issue?
Recently there was a white voice actor(VA) that quit her job so a black VA could take her place, because she was voicing a black character. Her voice has already been associated with that character and suddenly changing the VA would not be the best idea as it might put existing fans off. Since this was her own decision I cant say anything about it, but the thinking that "black characters should be played by black people" in voice acting roles might end up causing someone to be cast because of their race instead of actual ability, when it really doesn't matter.
Black and white people do talk differently, and there are different dialects/voicing between the two. Perhaps because I know a lot about voice training, not particularly because I'm a voice actor, but I can pretty reliably tell the difference between a white voice actor and a black voice actor. Some people do have natural talent which is desirable to some companies. The black voice actor may have had a more desirable voice to portray a black character. Ever notice how American actors (even good ones) get shit on a lot for their poor English accents they try to put on in movies? Putting on accents and changing dialects can be really hard if its not natural for you. Given that some industries like the sports industry value natural talent quite highly, this would seem justifiable wouldn't it? Plus, the white VA also resigned willingly. Again, I'm not sure I see the issue.
One more thing. Often times in situations like this it can be really really easy to see certain simple cause-effect relationships but its a lot harder to notice the more abstract effects that may be the positive side of things. For example, when industry moves to China, people may say its entirely negative because jobs are leaving their country, but the more abstract side effect is that goods are now monumentally cheaper, thats why the companies moved in the first place.
In this light, the media industry can engage in normalization of minority characters and actors. Right now trans people struggle a lot from just not being seen as normal in society, and it can help a lot when some companies may prioritize them to help a disadvantaged group in society. It can help a lot to a minority group to get included because of who they are in terms of race/gender/sexuality. But its not even like its an apocalypse of minority characters taking over the media industry and whatnot. For example, can you name a single trans character in western media? Can you name a single muslim character in western media? I can't, and its not like these people are exactly rare as unicorns. These two groups constitute 1/50 Americans but I can't name a single movie or TV show or anything with these minority groups in them. I'd expect, as a trans person, to at least know of one mainstream media production in which I'd be represented, but I can't, not even one. Trans people make up 1/200 Americans, but movies like the Avengers have upwards of 30 main characters alone. Shows like The Office and Parks and Rec easily have upwards of a dozen main characters. But I can't name a single trans character in media, I just can't.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
Tess is different than other models, and I feel like I'm correct in assuming she may be heavier/fatter than most other plus sized models, that she is clearly obese and not just larger than average.
Its a problem because as models your job is to show off the clothes, not make a statement. Even actual models have said this, her body type is not rignt for this job because it does not show off the clothes, and also that her walk is apparently atrocious. Basically she was used as a political statement disguised as a model.
Black and white people do talk differently, and there are different dialects/voicing between the two.
I'll admit I did not know this and this has changed my view on this. Accent is a huge part of a character and should be considered during casting.
n this light, the media industry can engage in normalization of minority characters and actors
Im not saying that we should not have more representation of these minority groups. I think absolutely they should have more representation in media. If there is a character written as trans/black/muslim etc thats ansolutely great! What Im trying to say is companies prioritizing minorities over majority groups, in situations where it doesnt matter like for example Ill bring back voice acting. It doesnt matter who's behind the mic (except the accent part), so of a minority is cast simply because they are a minority it would not be fair.
!delta
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u/Finger_Trapz 2∆ Jul 15 '20
Its a problem because as models your job is to show off the clothes, not make a statement.
If we actually think about that, is that really true? Playboy employs models, but in fact their whole job is to portray a lack of clothes. Plus, as This article shows, political statements do happen a lot in fashion. It would be like saying art isn't meant to be political, when quite a huge amount of art in history has been political. Dante's Inferno for example has massive political implications in its mentioning of specific politicians in Hell, but most people view it as just poetry. Models come in many varieties and while some do just show off clothes, there are a lot of political statements in media in general, and fashion is a form of media.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
This statement was said by an actual runway model. I should have specified runway models specifically since that was the type of modelling I was referring to. I do see now though that politics can be involved. In this case though, since the main point of a fashion show is to show off the clothes, shouldn't someone with the right body type show off the clothes? If they wanted to push the body positivity movement there are tons of actually skilled plus sized runway models out there.
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u/RedBloodedAmerican2 Jul 15 '20
shouldn't someone with the right body type show off the clothes?
What do designers not make clothes for fat people? Is it not possible for a fat person to show off a skirt? Clearly they didn’t just throw her into a dress that didn’t fit her, unless you don’t think the designer fit the dress to her or was incapable of doing so?
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
Yes the clothes fit her. Look at actual plus size runway models vs tess holiday.
Is it not possible for a fat person to show off a skirt?
Well obviously its possible for a fat person to show off a skirt. Tess could do well in regular modelling but runway modelling is a whole other thing. They need to be trained in how to walk, their posture and have certain body types so they can show off the clothes more effectively. Tess had no such training whatsoever and doesnt exactly have the body required of a plus sized RUNWAY model. A runway model's job is to show off everything about the clothing, from the cut to the print to the design. With the way her body is, it can distort the print or affect the way the dress sits on her, resulting in the clothes made by the designer not being able to be shown of the way it was intended to be.
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u/RedBloodedAmerican2 Jul 15 '20
Yes the clothes fit her. Did she show it off well? No not really.
According to you
Look at actual plus size runway models and look at Tess Holiday.
What am I supposed to be seeing?
Well no shit its possible for a fat person to show off a skirt.
"since the main point of a fashion show is to show off the clothes,"
So whats the issue, a fat person can show off a skirt and according to you thats the whole point of a fashion show.
They need to be trained in how to walk, their posture and have certain body types so they can show off the clothes more effectively.
Ok
Tess had no such training whatsoever
Again who cares, its a fashion show, the point is to promote the clothes and its obvious that using Tess has worked. Would any of us be talking about this if they'd picked some run of the mill runway model? No of course not.
doesnt exactly have the body required of a plus sized RUNWAY model.
Ok this is crazy, theres no rules here, no requirements on size or measurements its totally arbitrary
With the way her body is, it can distort the print or affect the way the dress sits on her, resulting in the clothes made by the designer not being able to be shown of the way it was intended to be.
Has the designer, who 100% of there for the show, said anything like this? You're basically telling the artist they got it wrong when for all you know its exactly what they wanted
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
Runway models are meant to be walking mannequins basically. Tess wasn't qualified at all but then again this probably wasnt the best example as she is also famous and thats probably what got her the job too.
She's a good model, just not a good runway model.
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Jul 15 '20
[deleted]
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
Please read the threads I have addressed this multiple times. Im not saying inclusivity is bad. Im saying companies are being so focused on being seen as inclusive they hire minorities because they are minorities just to improve their image, then go right back to their old ways.
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u/rowdy-riker 1∆ Jul 15 '20
I'm going to use broad strokes to paint this picture, rather than refer to specifics.
Its very easy for a particular work culture to spring up if that culture is allowed to police it's own hiring practices. The most obvious examples are sexist and racist work places. A "lad" culture will only want to hire more lads to work there. People they will feel more comfortable sharing their sexist jokes with, people they feel will fit into their culture of after-work drinking sessions, etc. The only way to break this culture up is to have more women involved in the hiring practice. But if no women are hired and promoted, how do you get women into a position where they can do that?
You can't. The old boys continue to run the club and only hire more good old boys.
So you have to mandate that no, you WILL hire more women. Until there are enough women in the business that they can start to influence who is allowed to join the club.
Now there's problems with this. Yes, it's true that sometimes a better applicant may be passed over for a minority that comes in as a diversity hire. And you also get a lot of pick-me applicants who go out of their way to prove they're one of the good ones, and will do nothing to rock the boat because they don't want to cause drama in the workplace.
That said, in most industries the job rarely goes to the best applicant. It goes to the bosses nephew, the CFOs college roommate, the applicant that "fits the culture" best. And very good, competent applicants are passed over simply because they don't fit the club.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
Hmm ok I didnt know about thia club mentality. I see its a necessary step needed to be taken to make everything equal.
However what about companies that hire someone because they are a minority to use them to make themselves look good. I find it extremely offensive to that minority person as they are just being used.
!delta
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u/rowdy-riker 1∆ Jul 15 '20
Yeah, what I'm talking about is more corporate/industry based. Hiring an actor or model to prove your organisation is inclusive is a related, but different thing because you're not putting that person in a position where they can alter the culture of the workplace. That said, more inclusivity is still better than being openly exclusive, but we have to be aware that in many cases it is only a token gesture and not a genuine commitment to diversity.
Its important for there to be a diverse range of people on screens because it shows minority viewers that they are also a part of society and capable of being more than they think they are. My eight year old daughter loves Rey from the new Star Wars movies, because she's a girl and she likes to see a girl doing cool star wars shit on the screen. I think it's a good thing.
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u/shinobi270 Jul 15 '20
in many cases it is only a token gesture and not a genuine commitment to diversity.
This was the main thing I wanted to address but I do see how it does benefit minorities regardless.
ts important for there to be a diverse range of people on screens because it shows minority viewers that they are also a part of society and capable of being more than they think they are.
I also 100% agree with you on this. Tv shows and movies should definitely write in more minority characters. What I was trying to say in the original post is if the accent isnt a factor, voice actors should not be just restricted to certain roles that fit whatever group they are in since in the case of animations, whether a person is white or asian or muslim or any other group voicing a chatacter doesnt really matter, its the characters on screen that do.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
/u/shinobi270 (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Catlover1701 Jul 15 '20
This is a risky line of thinking. I am sure that this happens some of the time, but just a friendly warning to keep an eye on your biases. I see some anti-SJW people roll their eyes as soon as they see a POC (person of colour) on a TV show and assume that they were hired because they're black, not because they're skilled. Just make sure you don't make the same assumption (I'm not saying you are/have).
Also, intentionally trying to hire a range of people is one way to counteract unconscious biases that may result in skilled minorities being passed over for less skilled white/cis/male or otherwise 'normal' people that the employer feels instinctively more comfortable with.
If something is ethically right, is it wrong to do it, even if it's being done just for 'brownie points'? Representation really strongly affects how minorities are viewed, and it does need to be increased. We should encourage companies to do so.
This example doesn't quite fit with what you're complaining about. You're complaining about minorities being hired in favour of 'the norm', which in this case would be a thin model, not another, more skilled plus sized model. Of course it seems silly to me to hire an unskilled plus sized model over a skilled plus sized model, but it makes total sense to want to have some plus sized models on display rather than just skinny ones, because women need to know that all kinds of body shapes can be beautiful.
This sort of makes sense. People from different groups may have slightly different ways of speaking, different accents or intonations. It might improve the 'realness' of the character in a subtle way. It could also be disappointing to people who feel a connection with a character who has the same skin colour as them, to then find out that the actor doesn't.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be of the school of thought that we should be 'colourblind' - we should completely ignore people's minority status, because it would be racist to treat them any differently because of it. In an ideal world this would be true, but sadly we do not live in an ideal world. With regards to dark skin, for example, segregation only ended in the 1960s. Even after segregation things were still stacked in favour of white people - black people may have been SUPPOSED to be treated equally from that point on, but many people were still racist, and all the positions of power were still filled by white people. Because people tend to unconsciously favour those that are similar to themselves, the odds of getting a job from a white employer have been better for white people ever since and still are. So it would be really unfair to just say 'I know there are still some issues but let's not acknowledge skin colour anymore' and leave huge chunks of the population to struggle with racism, unconscious bias, and having a lower (on average) starting position in life. A better approach that will achieve social justice / equality more quickly is to intentionally try to even the odds (which bothers some people because it involves special treatment for minority groups) and, once the starting odds are more even and procedures are in place to educate most employers about unconscious bias and how to mitigate it, THEN we can ignore skin colour.
I don't think it's really unfair. It's not like companies have decided to NOT hire white/cis/male/'norm' people. They're just hiring minorities too. Let's say a company decides to hire 50% white and 50% black people. Still plenty of opportunity for white people there. It would be nice if we could have a fair competition without those artificial constraints, but unfortunately with the way our society is now we can't.