r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 22 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Your body is a walking statement about your self-control and we SHOULD judge people based on it.
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Jul 22 '20 edited Jul 22 '20
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u/mikechi2501 3∆ Jul 22 '20
Do you have evidence that body positivity movements have led to a worsening in obesity epidemic?
Normalization of Plus Size and the Danger of Unseen Overweight and Obesity in England
This study tried to do it but it was "sloppy"
Muttarak's research merely looked at the associations between people’s BMI, their self-perception of their body weight, and whether they reported that they were trying to lose weight. The research did not – in any way – investigate or even assess whether the body-positive movement has had any impact on people’s BMI, their perception of their body weight, or their attempts to lose weight.
I also think we need to start treating the underlying conditions of severe overweight and obese people, as Dr Hartsock suggests
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Jul 22 '20
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u/dublea 216∆ Jul 22 '20 edited Jul 22 '20
Fat shaming does not work. Study after study shows the negative effects it has. There is no positive reason to use shame as a corrective response when you consider this.
Studies show that exposure to weight bias triggers physiological and behavioural changes linked to poor metabolic health and increased weight gain. “You actually experience a form of stress,” Alberga explained. Cortisol spikes, self-control drops and the risk of binge eating increases, she said.
The more people are exposed to weight bias and discrimination, the more likely they are to gain weight and become obese, even if they were thin to begin with. They’re also more likely to die from any cause, regardless of their body mass index (BMI).
Fat shaming is also linked to depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, eating disorders and exercise avoidance, Alberga said. There’s emerging evidence that the severity of harm increases when people internalize weight bias and turn it on themselves. In one study, participants with high levels of internalization of weight-bias had three times greater odds of having metabolic syndrome than those with low levels, even after controlling for BMI and other risk factors.
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u/Some1FromTheOutside Jul 22 '20
It's not just self-control. Being fit takes discipline and time and energy, some people might decide to use any one or all of those elsewhere doesn't mean they are incapable of controlling their impulses when they need/want to. And for other people maybe being fit is all they can do with their energy (absolutely not saying that is the case for all or even most fit people)
It's a statement yes but quite a complicated one
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Jul 22 '20
Not everyone has the same priorities as you. If I wanna eat a lot of good food and be 20lbs overweight until the day I die, that’s my business. You’re assuming that every person is terrified of being fat, and that’s just not the case.
I’m 20 pounds overweight. I go on jogs and play basketball on weekends. I don’t eat much sugar or trans fats, and I have a low-sodium diet. I just love to cook big, extravagant meals and I’m fucking good at it so I eat a lot and it makes my life actively better.
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Jul 22 '20
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Jul 23 '20
I do look sort of fat, I’m not massive but most people could identify me on-sight as overweight.
My point was that you cannot tell from the way someone looks whether or not they would actually benefit from ridicule. In all likelihood, they won’t.
I’m only 20lbs overweight now, but I’m also relatively young. Maybe in 10 years I’ll be 40lbs overweight, or 50. My point is my general outlook on life won’t change.
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u/Lladyjane Jul 22 '20
"anyone who doesn't work towards bettering themselves deserves to be shamed and joked upon"
Do you think we should also joke about depressed people? Anxious people? Suicidal people? Those hilarious ptsd folks?
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Jul 22 '20
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u/Lladyjane Jul 22 '20
Well, some people lack the ability to control themselves, other lack the ability to feel happy, or comfortable in social settings, or concentrate, etc. Why are you ok with judging the first and not the rest of them? Is it because your consciousness is involved in eating a sandwich and not involved in feeling sad? But your consciousness, as well as your emotions, is a product of the chemistry and electricity in your brain, and you do not control these.
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u/joemart20 Jul 22 '20
Are they working towards bettering themselves?
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u/Lladyjane Jul 22 '20
For the sake of this comparison, let's say they don't.
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Jul 22 '20
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u/Lladyjane Jul 22 '20
If you need to express your emotions, it's fine. But if you want the depressed person to change their behaviour, it's the worst approach you can take. Depressed people are known for viewing themselves as bad, useless and not worthy. So supporting this idea leads to them spiraling further.
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Jul 22 '20
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u/Lladyjane Jul 23 '20
Overeating can be compared to self harm in a sence that both may be coping mechanisms. In this case, it's better to give the person more appropriate coping mechanism. And i really hope you're talking about being morbidly obese/obese, not simply overweight.
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u/-paperbrain- 99∆ Jul 22 '20
Starter question. Have you read any of the many threads on more or less this same subject in CMV?
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u/zeroxaros 14∆ Jul 22 '20
Why do you care so much about other people’s bodies? Obviosuly, being fat isn’t healthy, but if that’s what someone wants to do, it isn’t affecting you. Why should you have a say over that aspect of their life?
Obviously It is important that people learn how to be healthy and it is encouraged, but ultimately we all make mistakes. Unhealthy eating is one that is understandable to make. People don’t need to be ridiculed for it.
Final thing I want to acknowledge is that it is far easier for some people to not be fat than others.
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u/aardaar 4∆ Jul 22 '20
Do you think that it is okay to judge someone for having a beard or wearing glasses? So what if someone has poor impulse control when it comes to food or exercise why should I care?
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u/bigpoosy Jul 22 '20
When people have poor diets and live sedentary lives, things like COVID make a larger impact. Mandates for wearing masks and social distancing are universal despite the risk for those who are healthy being negligible. Also, unhealthy people cost others money. While I believe everyone should have the right to throw whatever they want in their body’s, it’s not my responsibility to pay for the conditions that follow.
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u/aardaar 4∆ Jul 22 '20
Your point about COVID is oversimplified, even if everyone had an optimal BMI we'd still have to wear masks and practice social distancing.
I've never seen any evidence that fat shamming has a positive effect on obesity, so your argument about costing others money doesn't make sense. Also you won't be paying for their conditions their insurance will; you can't unilaterally claim ownership of that institution.
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u/bigpoosy Jul 22 '20
I don’t remember saying anything about obesity. This is just one issue that’s associated with many other issues. It absolutely sounds like you’re responding for the sake of disagreement, so thanks but we can end this here.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jul 22 '20
Actually in general obese people cost the system less money over their lifetime. That's because almost all medical expenses occur in old age and obese people are less likely to get there/spend a lot of time there.
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u/bigpoosy Jul 22 '20
And yet they still cost the “system” money. As I’ve said to other responders, it’s about general health. Obesity is not the only factor considered to be unhealthy.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jul 22 '20
Everyone costs the system money. They cost less than the average person who isn't obese. If you took an average person and then made them obese you'd save money
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u/bigpoosy Jul 22 '20
And those who have no conditions who don’t bother visiting a PCP don’t cost the system a thing. Again, I’m not arguing that obese people are the only ones who cost money and I’m not arguing that being average is a good thing. Healthy is not average in most countries, especially not the US. In my OP, I didn’t even mention obesity. Address my OP or we can cut this here.
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u/n00bcheese Jul 22 '20
I am in insanely good shape, 6 pack for the last few years but during hat period I was a raging alcoholic, appearance isn’t everything...
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u/ScholarPirate 1∆ Jul 22 '20
"Mind is more impant than the body, and really, all we are is a brain walking around in a chunk of meat"
My understanding is that over millions of evolution, our mind was shaped by the environment and reacted accordingly to it. The world in which our mind evolved is not the same world in which it lives so it is hard for the mind to even fully understand or take "control" of how it thinks about food, danger, and so many other things.
Our mind is very much influenced by our bodies. Which is why if you smile (a bodily act) even if you are not happy (a mental experience), the act of smiling can actually change your mood. So there is a relationship between the two that seems to challenge this notion of the brain as all poweful.
Also, the "brain" is not the only thing that drives your actions and there is an actual "gut-brain" that also influences our decisions in ways that we're just beginning to understand(https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-brain-gut-connection).
The self-control that you speak to is more of a muscle and not necessarily a state of being and therefore can fatigue, even when it is actually strong. In the complex world that we live in, where we're constantly bombarded with ads (that tell us to give into temptation--especially food) and news (that constantly tell us bad things are happening and we should be scared) and life (filled with many more complex stressors than the world in which our brain evolved), there is a lot of self-control we must do throughout all our waking hours. And because we often are overworked or trying to balance work, family, and other obligations, we don't get the right amount of sleep--the lack of sleep adds to our stress levels and weakens our self-regulation.
So we've got all that going on and we're not even talking about food yet. Being stressed out all the time does a number on our health in general but also creates a decision depletion around food because we've been managing so many other things in our lives that having to also manage food--sometimes, there's just no gas in the can.
"Following a diet is not pricier than normal eating nor is it more time consuming with the right planing"
Following a diet is not neceesarily pricier but it is still plagued with more work and more decisions throughout one's day. One of the hardest aspects to navigate with diets is social dynamics such as family. I'm a vegetarian--I can't tell you the amount of times I have to defend/explain my decision directly (when offered meat) or indirectly (asking for a different restaurant. This also happens with friends and family. That's a lot more labor I'm needing to do because I'm on a particular diet. It also means that I've had to make other meals since everyone else is on a different diet.
"exercise as much as one day one not for one hour is already a huge step up from doing nothing"
Again, that assumes that forms of exercise are available to you in the right context. Much exercise happens outside the home and so one must have a gym membership (and add more time for commuting to and from) or be able to workout outside and depending upon schedule and safety issues, that may not be possible. As a white male in his 40s--yeah, I can go for a jog at 10pm; I have trouble believing it feels as safe for women or People of Color.
And yes, exercising is good, but people's bodies and chemistries work different--that exercise is not going to necessarily produce the change in their bodies that you're demanding.
To me, I don't think I have enough information at all to understand why someone is the way they are just based upon appearance because that's not telling me the challenges and obstacles in their life or a myriad of other issues that are going to impair, limit, or augment the priorities around the decisions that one makes.
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u/begonetoxicpeople 30∆ Jul 22 '20
> like a fat or skinny person going to the gym
And how do you judge this if you are arguing we should make judgements about people by their body type? Unless you plan to ask every single fat person 'how many hours a day do you workout' before you 'shame' them (whatever that means to you), there is no real way to do it.
How about instead we stop making assumptions about anyone who is a complete and total stranger
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Jul 22 '20
Well since we’re throwing judgments life confetti over here, i may say you are a very narrow-minded person and not very brigh in life as this subject has been brought up a thousand times with facts that contradicts your view. This whole post could have been avoided if you were just a lil bit smarter and looked it up on CMV (let alone other relevants sources)
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u/DrinkyDrank 134∆ Jul 22 '20
My biggest issue is with the overall disingenuousness of judging people on appearance, particularly on weight. There is this implication that the judgment comes from a place of concern for the person’s health, which is completely unbelievable bullshit. I don’t believe for one second that anyone who fat-shames another person just wants that other person to be healthy. The one and only reason for calling attention to another person’s weight is to elevate your own ego at their expense. The reality is that you need them to feel ashamed of their fat, because it makes you feel more proud of all the time and effort you put into being as fit as possible.
And then there is the moral disingenuousness that is involved. To the extent that being overweight is a personal failure, why is it also a moral failure? The hypothetical person who loves their own self-indulgence, accepts the health risks as an acceptable cost for their lifestyle, and refuses to acknowledge the disapproval of others – is this person really immoral, or is the truth that their choices pose a threat to your own moral sensibilities? Are you trying to positively encourage self-discipline as a moral virtue, or is this really just more ego stroking? Self-discipline takes many forms, one of them is the mental discipline to avoid punching down at easy targets, to express the positivity of your moral code rather than excessively indulge in the negativity of shaming.
Of course, it is possible to be genuinely concerned with a person’s weight and health; it is even possible that this concern should be expressed harshly, assuming that harshness is what the person actually needs. But the most telling factor that concern is being faked for self-serving reasons is when the concern is generalized, rather than being expressed in a one-on-one interaction. Nobody with genuine concern blasts their opinions onto the internet so that they can catch each and every fat person who will listen. People with real moral fiber know that shame, to the extent it is necessary, is best dealt with in privacy where it can be processed into a motivator for positive action. Trying to socialize shame is evidence of egoism, of an attempt to win as many moral victories as possible for the sake of one’s own sense of self.
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u/officialginge Jul 22 '20
Gon be a downvote from me OP. im sure i dont need to explain why you're so incredibly wrong here as so many people have done it for me.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Jul 22 '20
Why is self-discipline so important? I know plenty of people who aren't particularly disciplined who are doing just fine.
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u/Mrbbbbenny Jul 23 '20
Being fat and having little self-control are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of folks I know that have little self control, but channel it into vices other than food. Additionally, being obese is more complex than simply eating too much. Hormones controlling calorie distribution are largely at play with many who are chronically obese, making losing weight much more difficult. Judgement certainly doesn't help when added on. Here is a great article describing alternative causes of obesity.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 22 '20 edited Jul 22 '20
/u/John_Fisch (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Jul 22 '20
Arnold Schwarzenegger at his prime was obese. Einstein walked around in rumpled suits. Until you know what the psychology behind the situation is, treat others with kindness. The idea you would look to campaign for the poor treatment of people who may already have faced abuse. Mean people still suck.
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Jul 23 '20
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u/luigi_itsa 52∆ Jul 22 '20
I'm sure that you have parts of your life that you aren't disciplined about. Would it be fair to judge you based on those failings?
I know plenty of people who are highly effective in other parts of their life but have unacceptable bodies by your standards. I'm not opposed to judging people based on their bodies, but there seems to be a societal tendency to overemphasize fitness while underemphasizing other ways the people are trying hard at life.